The ( bienvenu la Revolution Thread ) Here in this post ....

[Stav 0]

Its been a long time …….. got a temporary pc back …… what a post …..

Continuation here of this post :

http://www.repticlic.com/colubrides-et-autres-serpents-colubrids-and-other-snakes-f21/bienvenue-a-la-revolution-t5863-330.htm#53547

First …Let me remind you that this site is not a board of inquiry like the BOI or any shitty site like this where people breath , eat and shit msn and facebook day and night with their imaginary friendships where everything is said positivly or not because a transaction went good or where people are bashed when they shouldent be or where people arent and should be …. Freedom of speach its one thing and for sure not a site like the BOI ….Neither its a free for all chaotic party here….

.Second …..A post hard to follow for french speaking boys and girls , going in too many directions on 12 pages …. I suggest that you split your subjects …. A thread that would have as a title « morphs » or whatever related would be great . Same thing with all the other subjects discussed in this thread …. Beauty snakes ? make a thread with a title ralated and talk about beauty snakes ….. You wanna talk about if burmese pythons or dangerous snakes should or not be kept in the hobby , make a thread in this direction ….. if you wanna talk about herping , there is a herping section as well ….. too bad because there is some nice stuff in this thread that should be red but will not be by most of people including me because its too hard to follow in english ….. I didint read the whole thread because its like a « pile of mixed spaghetti « some times with an ugly spaghetti sauce taste and sometimes with good one . Some good points and some « hypocritic , narcissistic, two faced self belly buttons watchers even some parts look like speaches of 12 yr old adolencents in full identity crissis that wanna find a cause to stick too with a tunnel vision without a periferic view….. «

Hey…. Let me ask you something …… Who the f *** some of you guys think you are judging other peoples capabilities of keeping some reptiles or what should they like or dislike or what direction they wanna represent their hobby or how they do it , or if they do it for whatever reason etc,,,, etc,,,,, especially without even knowing someones backgroud or what he did or did not in the hobby or his efforts , successes and failures or the passion he has for his hobby ? Who some of you seriously think they are ? So many missleading false representation of the hobby and its people….and its a shame …..

Morph Whores ?, Money making ? , industry ?, market ???? Who the f*** are you again to judge people like you do ? Who the F*** are you to speak about protection , evolution and all what comes with it ? Who of those who speak ( including that idiot bee something i red in the post who the only truth or intelligent he spoke is Corey being a pionneer which he really is by his choice making his passion a Job from a to z again who the f*** are people to judge someone that decides the direction of his life and what he does or does not with his life) who here gave something in the auction from their own production or stuff they have in some quantity that they bough or not ? Only Stevie with what i understand ….. Money making ???? who here sold any snake ….. cribos , indigos , beautys , corns , racers , kings , milks , balls , boas , rat snakes or anything else at an affordable price for anyone to buy ??? ……. How come indigos are sold this much ? How come they are not sold at a fair price like a boa is which is between 75 and 150$ or a ball at 25 – 50 $???? Not to mention other examples …. Maybe hypocrytic self centered thinking maybe ?

Most of the comments or views here are not worth more than PETA or « Brigitte Titie Bardeau « or the idiot anthropomorphistic newbie crack heads that find that feeding a snake to a snake is something that shouldent exist …… same hypocritic level the only difference is the subjects ….

Now personnally …..

Do I think that the hobby is sick and getting sicker every day ?

- The answer is yes

Do I think that there should be people in this hobby that shouldent be part of it ?

- The answer is yes

Do i think there is reptiles being missreprensented just for the $ sign at the end ?

- The answer is yes

Dp I think that because of internet the hobby exploded and that there is people seing and getting in this hobby thinking they gonna get rich one day ?

- The answer is yes

Do I think and beleive by experience that many people make themselfs big heads way more than they really are by creating an internet « image » of something that they are not ?

- yes many and many more every year

Do I think that many new guys portray themselfs as businisses with their original well made sites when in fact they are like most of the people here in Canada breeders except 1 or 2 that made a living out of their hobby ?

- Yes absolutely

Do I think that its a disgrace for the hobby a F***er that buys and ressels stuff « BUT « claims its his production ?

- Yes again

Do I think this hobby takes sometimes the appearance of : the cliche of the old english grannies sharing some biscuits drinking a cup of tea with two fingers holding the cup and with their pinkies up in the air talking together like people on « MSN or face book ? « …

- Again the answer is yes ….. and for many more things too that would take me months to enumerate …..


All this said ……

Is there many people in this hobby that are straight, with a passion for there hobby …….no matter there sexes , sexual preferences , weight , color , deseases , education background , age etc……..and this no matter what they keep, like or dont keep and dislike no matter if its a lombric , a cricket , a ratsnake or a 4 zillion $$$$ snake ?????????

- Offcourse there are plenty ! yes

Do I personnally try to make the things real, represent the animals as they really are and are not and represent the hobby as it really is and put the passion before anything else no matter the discution , the money value , the transaction or whatever else and make sure people understand what I say before they get a snake and say to them to forget the amount of $$$ from 1 $ to 10 zillion $ that they pay or that they think they gonna make or « project « to make ?

- Yes and i’ll continue to do it until i’m out of it , this is called education and its starts from there , for sure not like things said here like the Morph Whores and anything that comes with it …..




To bad that this thread looks like a bunch msn texts of people in their own universe chatting 24-7 , one track minded with a bit of narcissism , high self esteem, no differential views on the subject that everything in the same basket and a hint of 12 yr olds in crissis judjing people without even knowing their background , knowledge or true intentions in this hobby along with who should or should not keep whatever reptile or grain of sand ……..

Everything starts with education when you want change on something …..


If you guys wanna continue debating on this subject debate here , if some want to debate on other things like :should giants and dangerous snakes should be kept or not start a new thread in the general reptile discution , if you wanna talk about herping go in the herping section etc….. try not to make it chaotic in all directions on 50 pages …… make 50 pages on one subject no problem otherwise its not understandable for someone that reads especially that most of the people are french speaking …..

Cheers

[Duff1 0]

Heck - the whole purpose of any forum is to invite discussion. Whether we agree or disagree is moot. The point is to have a logical and (hopefully) educational discussion for all parties involved.

Stav, I'm not going to address your long and impassioned post point by point - I'm not here to debate my view versus your view. But I will shed a little bit of light on why threads like "The Revolution" exist and become chaotic lightning rods for some of us.

I've perused the Canadian Repitle forums, and I am a member of several American forums (including Fauna Classifieds ). While I strive to share my experiences or ask questions from people wiser than me, the focus in these forums has subtley shifted over the years.

No, I am not a taxonomy snob and I certainly don't feel that my opinions should be accepted by all as Truth - because when it comes down to it - I'm a middle aged man who builds roads and bridges for a living not a biologist, herpetologist or even proctologist for that matter. My views account for nothing except to those who are interested in perspective...........

But my persepctive is that many forums are heavily sponsored and influenced by breeders - and by default their ideals and their morals. Are all breeders bad? Lord no. But many breeders exist not to better the breed they propagate, but to line their wallets. There are some mighty fine examples of that ilk sponsoring these forums. The problem is that, in my opinion, ethics and husbandry have to go hand and hand or you are no better than a pimp.

Is it wrong to sell (or buy for that matter) a color morph of a reptile? No. But it is wrong to inbreed animals to the point where genetic flaws and health issues become accepted as a sacrifice to an aesthetic ideal.

Maybe you don't agree with me in that breeders should also have a moral obligation to ensure that their animals go to homes that can properly care for them. Let me pull my index finger out of my belly button at this point and use it instead for emphasis when I say that I have bred reptiles for money, but I have always been selective about what I sell to whom and have always insisted on right of first refusal.

So when it became time to debate some of the big box breeders over their husbandry practices (keeping drys and pine snakes in cramped racks), breeding ethics (allowing for neurological issues in regius and morelia morphs because the colors were so damn pretty), or sales ethics (breeding giant constrictor color morphs or even hots and selling them to John Q. Public), their sponsorship of these forums led to the threads being locked down when they complained they were being attacked.

These were not BOI-style dog piles but discussions in which some sticky areas of the Hobby were being discussed and it was outright stifled. Apparently, I was not alone in experiencing this as others in the Revolution thread will probably attest to.

See Stav, education and logical debate was stifled because some of these breeders don't want any negative light shed on some of their practices. They appear to be afraid to get people thinking about the ethics of husbandry. They sponsor the sites so the threads were locked and the discussion stopped. Period.

So the Revolution has become a place where we can vent where we were once edited, censored and silenced. I have been told for years that my subocs, cribos, flavirufas, mussuranas, pits etc. were worthless because they were not anery or axanthic or codom for bleeding ulcers or whatever the flavor of the month was.

Herein lies the rub - when the overwhelming majority of people begin to equate an animal's worth with it's aesthetic appeal, we have a problem. If you disagree with that assertion, then you and I will never see eye to eye on this issue. Since the morph industry has placed an emphasis on this fundamentally wrong ideal, they are getting their fair share of hate on the Revolution thread.

I shared this via PM with Mr. Pogue and I think it needs repeating. I have been into Australian pythons (aspidites and antaresia) for many years. The Aussies are fairly strict when it comes to classifying their womas and aspidites by locality. In the States, we carelessly called every antaresia a spotted for years - much to the harm of what we now recognize as the four distinct species. Even as we speak, people breeding womas are breeding them for color, wiping out years and years of locality evolution. We are breeding these animals for aesthetic reasons and willfully ignoring that stimsons, womas and blackheads have not only evolved as a species, but have evolved as distinct localities within those species. This Hobby, with alarming frequency, places more emphasis on producing the perfect colored woma rather than producing a woma true to it's locality type. In my very biased opinion, I find that obscene. I find it digusting and I find it indefensible.

Do you really want what's being discussed in the Revolution thread spilling out into the boa and python forums here?

I have no problem with that. My ego is not on the line here, Stav. I've been told for years I keep worthless (except for the couperi) reptiles. That recurring low opinion of my herpetological tastes hasn't fazed me yet.

You breed boas - right? I would love to relate to you my experiences with asymptomatic IBD in my locality boa collection (5+ years). Do you think that a discussion that would include hearing about how some of my Country's foremost IBD researchers are fuming about how the boa community is ignoring this disease would be good for business? Or sharing some nasty e-mails I got from some well-respected boa breeders accusing me of hurting their sales? If so, my hat's off to you. If not, well, let's just say that maybe we are in agreement that the amorphous content of the Revolution thread may be a good thing after all.

You asked who "we" were......well, I am just a guy with an opinion. If my opinion offends - debate me and try to change it. I promise I won't take any questioning of my morals and values personally.

Regards,

Craig

[bistrobob85111 0]

Duff a écrit:

Is it wrong to sell (or buy for that matter) a color morph of a reptile? No. But it is wrong to inbreed animals to the point where genetic flaws and health issues become accepted as a sacrifice to an aesthetic ideal.

Hey Craig, that's my favorite part of your post.

I know Stav does take a long time for posts about ideology and i sometimes do too but i'm really not into it tonight, so i'll just leave it to this. I find it strange that people say they love an animal and yet they transform it so much, not to mention that it alters the bloodlines and the genepools... Doesnt make much sense to me. Anyways, goodnight .

phil.

[Stav 0]

Citation :

Heck - the whole purpose of any forum is to invite discussion. Whether we agree or disagree is moot. The point is to have a logical and (hopefully) educational discussion for all parties involved.

Stav, I'm not going to address your long and impassioned post point by point - I'm not here to debate my view versus your view. But I will shed a little bit of light on why threads like "The Revolution" exist and become chaotic lightning rods for some of us.

I've perused the Canadian Repitle forums, and I am a member of several American forums (including Fauna Classifieds Wink ). While I strive to share my experiences or ask questions from people wiser than me, the focus in these forums has subtley shifted over the years.

No, I am not a taxonomy snob and I certainly don't feel that my opinions should be accepted by all as Truth - because when it comes down to it - I'm a middle aged man who builds roads and bridges for a living not a biologist, herpetologist or even proctologist for that matter. My views account for nothing except to those who are interested in perspective...........

But my persepctive is that many forums are heavily sponsored and influenced by breeders - and by default their ideals and their morals. Are all breeders bad? Lord no. But many breeders exist not to better the breed they propagate, but to line their wallets. There are some mighty fine examples of that ilk sponsoring these forums. The problem is that, in my opinion, ethics and husbandry have to go hand and hand or you are no better than a pimp.

Yep the purpose of a forum is infact to invite discution ..... thought when someone will judge me without even knowing anything about me and telling me i do stuff for $$$ or i'm a whore because i have morphs or toothpics it is not an invite to discution on any subject . Its just like if I would say ..... people that keep colubris are a bunch of whores .... Gays are sick ..... Blacks are a lower species etc.... etc.... all this is where it comes too ...do you understand ?

Citation :

You breed boas - right? I would love to relate to you my experiences with asymptomatic IBD in my locality boa collection (5+ years). Do you think that a discussion that would include hearing about how some of my Country's foremost IBD researchers are fuming about how the boa community is ignoring this disease would be good for business? Or sharing some nasty e-mails I got from some well-respected boa breeders accusing me of hurting their sales? If so, my hat's off to you. If not, well, let's just say that maybe we are in agreement that the amorphous content of the Revolution thread may be a good thing after all.

Yep I do breed boas but i've also kept a ton of colubrids and some python species too and bred too even on a few generations "ncluding local reptiles" when I was younger , infact thats where I learned by myself most of the basics not only of care but breeding and its not only two three years ago that i'm in this hobby and you also will never see me bragging about it . See where it goes too ?

Do you know how I learned about hibernation ? By diging a whole at age 7or 8 in the snow under my moms deck and putting 60-70 garter snakes in it and making sure that they were all covered by many inches of snow after trying one and seen that it was slowing down to eventually stop moving . All this because i've seen a documentary on tv in english and in my childs head didint get it right ... i found out around a hoit day in april or may that they where all dead because my mom gave me a bag of shit because there was something stinking under the deck .... it was the top of the pile that thawd and stinked because where it was the sun penetrated under the deck .....

Do you wanna know what I used to do when i was young with the local snakes I was breeding and returning the babies to their spot ? I was cutting part of their tails to be able to identify them in my spots the years after .... of course i was contient that when i saw many with missing tails that it could be an animal that predated on them or something like that but when you see a cpl of dozens in a summer there,s pretty good chances that some are from the tail cuts ....

Do you wanna know how I used to find out what garters , milks and water snakes were eating when I was young ? Probably not but i'll tell you anyways .... I would make them regurge by pushing everything upwards so that I see what was in there ..... and no it was not harmfull and yes they would breed the next season or seasons .....

So do you know what view I have on people that would judge me on what i have or what i've done or what I dont have or didint done or say to me if the only thing I care is $$$ because i have morphs and the passion and ethics that I dont have ??? .... you dont wanna now ..... do you get what I mean ?

................ " worthless speach " and i'll put this on my " big whore breeders website " that I dont have under the " facility " which i also dont have .... for my friend D.Pogue on the other thread i"ve seen before writing this .....

So if you wanna discuss , share your views on something you are welcome .... but you have no right to judge me when you dont know me .... get what I mean ?

Now if I was an ass**** that would represent stuff otherwise what they are or if I fuck people for $$$ or misslead anyone to make a $$$ ..... then go for it because then I'm a "whore with the a** streched as wide as possible " for a buck or two ...... I guess not much will be understood because of my english .... if there is anything just let me know and i'll try to explain it better .


For the other parts of your message i'll start threads in english to speak about even if there is some in french already made so that people that are interested in : IBD , Inbreeding and other stuff can take part and it will be easier to understand and read with different individual topics ....

( give me some time I have a mac now and i'm slow computer learner .... )

[biz 0]

Stav is on fire tonight !

[Duff1 0]

Stav a écrit:

Citation :

Heck - the whole purpose of any forum is to invite discussion. Whether we agree or disagree is moot. The point is to have a logical and (hopefully) educational discussion for all parties involved.

Stav, I'm not going to address your long and impassioned post point by point - I'm not here to debate my view versus your view. But I will shed a little bit of light on why threads like "The Revolution" exist and become chaotic lightning rods for some of us.

I've perused the Canadian Repitle forums, and I am a member of several American forums (including Fauna Classifieds Wink ). While I strive to share my experiences or ask questions from people wiser than me, the focus in these forums has subtley shifted over the years.

No, I am not a taxonomy snob and I certainly don't feel that my opinions should be accepted by all as Truth - because when it comes down to it - I'm a middle aged man who builds roads and bridges for a living not a biologist, herpetologist or even proctologist for that matter. My views account for nothing except to those who are interested in perspective...........

But my persepctive is that many forums are heavily sponsored and influenced by breeders - and by default their ideals and their morals. Are all breeders bad? Lord no. But many breeders exist not to better the breed they propagate, but to line their wallets. There are some mighty fine examples of that ilk sponsoring these forums. The problem is that, in my opinion, ethics and husbandry have to go hand and hand or you are no better than a pimp.

Yep the purpose of a forum is infact to invite discution ..... thought when someone will judge me without even knowing anything about me and telling me i do stuff for $$$ or i'm a whore because i have morphs or toothpics it is not an invite to discution on any subject . Its just like if I would say ..... people that keep colubris are a bunch of whores .... Gays are sick ..... Blacks are a lower species etc.... etc.... all this is where it comes too ...do you understand ?

Citation :

You breed boas - right? I would love to relate to you my experiences with asymptomatic IBD in my locality boa collection (5+ years). Do you think that a discussion that would include hearing about how some of my Country's foremost IBD researchers are fuming about how the boa community is ignoring this disease would be good for business? Or sharing some nasty e-mails I got from some well-respected boa breeders accusing me of hurting their sales? If so, my hat's off to you. If not, well, let's just say that maybe we are in agreement that the amorphous content of the Revolution thread may be a good thing after all.

Yep I do breed boas but i've also kept a ton of colubrids and some python species too and bred too even on a few generations "ncluding local reptiles" when I was younger , infact thats where I learned by myself most of the basics not only of care but breeding and its not only two three years ago that i'm in this hobby and you also will never see me bragging about it . See where it goes too ?

Do you know how I learned about hibernation ? By diging a whole at age 7or 8 in the snow under my moms deck and putting 60-70 garter snakes in it and making sure that they were all covered by many inches of snow after trying one and seen that it was slowing down to eventually stop moving . All this because i've seen a documentary on tv in english and in my childs head didint get it right ... i found out around a hoit day in april or may that they where all dead because my mom gave me a bag of shit because there was something stinking under the deck .... it was the top of the pile that thawd and stinked because where it was the sun penetrated under the deck .....

Do you wanna know what I used to do when i was young with the local snakes I was breeding and returning the babies to their spot ? I was cutting part of their tails to be able to identify them in my spots the years after .... of course i was contient that when i saw many with missing tails that it could be an animal that predated on them or something like that but when you see a cpl of dozens in a summer there,s pretty good chances that some are from the tail cuts ....

Do you wanna know how I used to find out what garters , milks and water snakes were eating when I was young ? Probably not but i'll tell you anyways .... I would make them regurge by pushing everything upwards so that I see what was in there ..... and no it was not harmfull and yes they would breed the next season or seasons .....

So do you know what view I have on people that would judge me on what i have or what i've done or what I dont have or didint done or say to me if the only thing I care is $$$ because i have morphs and the passion and ethics that I dont have ??? .... you dont wanna now ..... do you get what I mean ?

................ " worthless speach " and i'll put this on my " big whore breeders website " that I dont have under the " facility " which i also dont have .... for my friend D.Pogue on the other thread i"ve seen before writing this .....

So if you wanna discuss , share your views on something you are welcome .... but you have no right to judge me when you dont know me .... get what I mean ?

Now if I was an ass**** that would represent stuff otherwise what they are or if I fuck people for $$$ or misslead anyone to make a $$$ ..... then go for it because then I'm a "whore with the a** streched as wide as possible " for a buck or two ...... I guess not much will be understood because of my english .... if there is anything just let me know and i'll try to explain it better .


For the other parts of your message i'll start threads in english to speak about even if there is some in french already made so that people that are interested in : IBD , Inbreeding and other stuff can take part and it will be easier to understand and read with different individual topics ....

( give me some time I have a mac now and i'm slow computer learner .... )

I'll keep this one a bit briefer............

I'd love to refine any discussion on ethics and snake breeding. There is no black and white but alot of gray areas to explore and I am more than up for it. Are you?

Unfortunately, I don't see that happening given your penchant for thinking that all of these discussions revolve around you personally. Something may be lost in translation here but I'm getting the feeling that you think that the discussions in the Revolution thread are singling you out.

Unless I'm incredibly dense, I'm missing where you've been accused of anything. If you're getting a bit defensive about what's being said because it cuts a little close to home - well, I can't help you there.

So I'm still game - but I got better things to do than have an internet screaming match with someone sitting a continent away. Tone it down, make your point and let's go to ethics. Convince me that breeding animals for aesthetics at the cost of preserving locality type and health is acceptable. Convince me that indiscriminate reptile sales for the sake of making a buck is good for anyone other than the breeder.

However if all you're interested in doing is berating me for having the temerity to voice my opinions - we've got nothing to discuss.

Regards,

Craig

[Stav 0]

bistrobob85 a écrit:

Duff a écrit:

Is it wrong to sell (or buy for that matter) a color morph of a reptile? No. But it is wrong to inbreed animals to the point where genetic flaws and health issues become accepted as a sacrifice to an aesthetic ideal.

Hey Craig, that's my favorite part of your post.

I know Stav does take a long time for posts about ideology and i sometimes do too but i'm really not into it tonight, so i'll just leave it to this. I find it strange that people say they love an animal and yet they transform it so much, not to mention that it alters the bloodlines and the genepools... Doesnt make much sense to me. Anyways, goodnight .

phil.

Obviously you dont know what you are talking about ...... and isint it you that talks about purity and portray the snakes you import like locals like the redtailed greens ..... as " Java" local ? because they the ones you got where silver and that the wholesaler there told you that they were from a specific local taking it for granted and spewing it like if it was god that told " its called missrepresenting " ..... this even if I told in person many time that you gonna have a bunch of colours in the clutches no matter their local or if they where silver ???????? Offcourse you shut your mouth hey Bistro ?

By the way I never heard any thanks from your mouth in person or even on a forum on telling you how to properly incubate your eggs you got from those wc females ...... not me not Elchef or Justin ..... you know what ..... they would have ended up like your others attemps to incubate ......

You are one that speaks about " profit " , " morphs" and things pêople should do or should not do or what everyone is capable of keeping safely ...... or selling ..... What a hypocritic view on the whole thing when a guy is proud to write axanthic on a scrub " and this even without genetics proven ... a wc one " ..... and on top of that criticising people selling anacondas or other dangerous snakes , when " you " , Your self is selling dangerous snakes like scrubs at large at a close to a 1000% profit from your original wc Cost ...... youre one that

How much are you selling the silver babies that cost you nothing to produce ( wc gravid females ) ? 175$ each ??? now if this is not profit ....... hummmmmm

For me you can sell whatever price you want or even give them free whatever the snake but dont have a 2 faced hypocrit standard were when it fits you you shut your mouth ..... and when it fits others their ethics are no good and are worthless ......

I gave sold in the past regular boas to up to 350$ - 400$ because ÙI decided they where worth that but without playing the adolescent " waht fits me " is ok what fits you its not .....

So spare us your " Love for animals " love for the hobby " and your twisted two faces talks where its ok for you to import """""" WC stuff - making tons of profit on them - some times missrepresennting them as locality stuff to be able to sell them as something special just like the exporter that sells them to you """""" all this hidden behind " conservation " You never gave anything to the community not even a single at the reptile club for the raffles ...... the freaking redtailed green rats where 12$ u.s EACH .....

Spare us the same old chorus ......or be sincere and stop having double standards ..... and make the profit that you judge ok for you ...... otherwise in good french ..... Basically ..... PRACTICE WHAT YOU PREACH or shut up ....

[Jon Davidson 0]

Duff a écrit:

I'll keep this one a bit briefer............

I'd love to refine any discussion on ethics and snake breeding. There is no black and white but alot of gray areas to explore and I am more than up for it. Are you?

Unfortunately, I don't see that happening given your penchant for thinking that all of these discussions revolve around you personally. Something may be lost in translation here but I'm getting the feeling that you think that the discussions in the Revolution thread are singling you out.

Unless I'm incredibly dense, I'm missing where you've been accused of anything. If you're getting a bit defensive about what's being said because it cuts a little close to home - well, I can't help you there.

So I'm still game - but I got better things to do than have an internet screaming match with someone sitting a continent away. Tone it down, make your point and let's go to ethics. Convince me that breeding animals for aesthetics at the cost of preserving locality type and health is acceptable. Convince me that indiscriminate reptile sales for the sake of making a buck is good for anyone other than the breeder.

However if all you're interested in doing is berating me for having the temerity to voice my opinions - we've got nothing to discuss.

Regards,

Craig

A good post, Mr. Duff; and Thank you for expressing so succinctly the perspective that many of us share regarding this issue. Sincerely, Jon Davidson .

[Stav 0]

Duff a écrit:

I'll keep this one a bit briefer............

I'd love to refine any discussion on ethics and snake breeding. There is no black and white but alot of gray areas to explore and I am more than up for it. Are you?

Unfortunately, I don't see that happening given your penchant for thinking that all of these discussions revolve around you personally. Something may be lost in translation here but I'm getting the feeling that you think that the discussions in the Revolution thread are singling you out.

Unless I'm incredibly dense, I'm missing where you've been accused of anything. If you're getting a bit defensive about what's being said because it cuts a little close to home - well, I can't help you there.

So I'm still game - but I got better things to do than have an internet screaming match with someone sitting a continent away. Tone it down, make your point and let's go to ethics. Convince me that breeding animals for aesthetics at the cost of preserving locality type and health is acceptable. Convince me that indiscriminate reptile sales for the sake of making a buck is good for anyone other than the breeder.

However if all you're interested in doing is berating me for having the temerity to voice my opinions - we've got nothing to discuss.

Regards,

Craig

See there is some missunderstanding because of language barrier in one subject ..... imagin in a thread with fifty subjects 12 pages long ..... this is what I was trying to explain previously .....

Do I take all this as if it was directed to me ?

Absolutely not ..... the only thing though its that I can " only share My personnal views and how it concerns me as well because I do have a bunch of morphs and also breed ..... so when i see someone talks about Hobby Passion not being there , about money makers , about carring for nothing or being somekind of market whore ..... it concerns me as well I cant put words in others mouth that dont talk if there is some .... do you understand now ?

I'll transfer right now your inbreeding and ethics in another thread as its gonna be easier as well and respond to you there ..... give me time i'm really slow ....

[Stav 0]

Edit .... Sorry wrong post ... see IBD post

[Superman811 0]

Damn that's a lot guys Its a forum its supposed to be friendly or at least Not aggressive .

[bistrobob85111 0]

Stav a écrit:

bistrobob85 a écrit:

Duff a écrit:

Is it wrong to sell (or buy for that matter) a color morph of a reptile? No. But it is wrong to inbreed animals to the point where genetic flaws and health issues become accepted as a sacrifice to an aesthetic ideal.

Hey Craig, that's my favorite part of your post.

I know Stav does take a long time for posts about ideology and i sometimes do too but i'm really not into it tonight, so i'll just leave it to this. I find it strange that people say they love an animal and yet they transform it so much, not to mention that it alters the bloodlines and the genepools... Doesnt make much sense to me. Anyways, goodnight .

phil.

Obviously you dont know what you are talking about ...... and isint it you that talks about purity and portray the snakes you import like locals like the redtailed greens ..... as " Java" local ? because they the ones you got where silver and that the wholesaler there told you that they were from a specific local taking it for granted and spewing it like if it was god that told " its called missrepresenting " ..... this even if I told in person many time that you gonna have a bunch of colours in the clutches no matter their local or if they where silver ???????? Offcourse you shut your mouth hey Bistro ?

By the way I never heard any thanks from your mouth in person or even on a forum on telling you how to properly incubate your eggs you got from those wc females ...... not me not Elchef or Justin ..... you know what ..... they would have ended up like your others attemps to incubate ......

You are one that speaks about " profit " , " morphs" and things pêople should do or should not do or what everyone is capable of keeping safely ...... or selling ..... What a hypocritic view on the whole thing when a guy is proud to write axanthic on a scrub " and this even without genetics proven ... a wc one " ..... and on top of that criticising people selling anacondas or other dangerous snakes , when " you " , Your self is selling dangerous snakes like scrubs at large at a close to a 1000% profit from your original wc Cost ...... youre one that

How much are you selling the silver babies that cost you nothing to produce ( wc gravid females ) ? 175$ each ??? now if this is not profit ....... hummmmmm

For me you can sell whatever price you want or even give them free whatever the snake but dont have a 2 faced hypocrit standard were when it fits you you shut your mouth ..... and when it fits others their ethics are no good and are worthless ......

I gave sold in the past regular boas to up to 350$ - 400$ because ÙI decided they where worth that but without playing the adolescent " waht fits me " is ok what fits you its not .....

So spare us your " Love for animals " love for the hobby " and your twisted two faces talks where its ok for you to import """""" WC stuff - making tons of profit on them - some times missrepresennting them as locality stuff to be able to sell them as something special just like the exporter that sells them to you """""" all this hidden behind " conservation " You never gave anything to the community not even a single at the reptile club for the raffles ...... the freaking redtailed green rats where 12$ u.s EACH .....

Spare us the same old chorus ......or be sincere and stop having double standards ..... and make the profit that you judge ok for you ...... otherwise in good french ..... Basically ..... PRACTICE WHAT YOU PREACH or shut up ....

Haha, i'm glad you bring that up, Stav. I'm such a mean importer doing it for money and doing disinformation to sell more, haha, you make me laugh . I import snakes so that there are captive stocks to reproduce, and i since i founded my company, i placed an average of one order per year, of which i kept most and never made a single cent of profit out of it all .

It's ok, you can fight all you want and shine your image, which is totally fine. A lot of people would do the same thing if they had a value of several tens of thousands of dollars of snakes and some people would tell them that the morph business is wrong .

I'm not feeding anybody with selling snakes snakes, nor paying myself trips anywhere exotic, nor buying any fancy snake morphs. I love my snakes. I love them and i'm not doing it to make neither friends or money. I'm not an importer, i'm a biology student.

You have way more reasons than i do to fight and have arguments on forums, and you can have fun and impress whoever you want, it is totally fine. Defend your business and your investments, both money and time... you should!!!!

We're both trying to contribute to the hobby in very different ways. I wish it would be more constructive. Anyways, in the meanwhile, i'm going to be on the other side, doing what i think is best with what i have.

phil.

[Stav 0]

bistrobob85 a écrit:

Stav a écrit:

bistrobob85 a écrit:

Duff a écrit:

Is it wrong to sell (or buy for that matter) a color morph of a reptile? No. But it is wrong to inbreed animals to the point where genetic flaws and health issues become accepted as a sacrifice to an aesthetic ideal.

Hey Craig, that's my favorite part of your post.

I know Stav does take a long time for posts about ideology and i sometimes do too but i'm really not into it tonight, so i'll just leave it to this. I find it strange that people say they love an animal and yet they transform it so much, not to mention that it alters the bloodlines and the genepools... Doesnt make much sense to me. Anyways, goodnight .

phil.

Obviously you dont know what you are talking about ...... and isint it you that talks about purity and portray the snakes you import like locals like the redtailed greens ..... as " Java" local ? because they the ones you got where silver and that the wholesaler there told you that they were from a specific local taking it for granted and spewing it like if it was god that told " its called missrepresenting " ..... this even if I told in person many time that you gonna have a bunch of colours in the clutches no matter their local or if they where silver ???????? Offcourse you shut your mouth hey Bistro ?

By the way I never heard any thanks from your mouth in person or even on a forum on telling you how to properly incubate your eggs you got from those wc females ...... not me not Elchef or Justin ..... you know what ..... they would have ended up like your others attemps to incubate ......

You are one that speaks about " profit " , " morphs" and things pêople should do or should not do or what everyone is capable of keeping safely ...... or selling ..... What a hypocritic view on the whole thing when a guy is proud to write axanthic on a scrub " and this even without genetics proven ... a wc one " ..... and on top of that criticising people selling anacondas or other dangerous snakes , when " you " , Your self is selling dangerous snakes like scrubs at large at a close to a 1000% profit from your original wc Cost ...... youre one that

How much are you selling the silver babies that cost you nothing to produce ( wc gravid females ) ? 175$ each ??? now if this is not profit ....... hummmmmm

For me you can sell whatever price you want or even give them free whatever the snake but dont have a 2 faced hypocrit standard were when it fits you you shut your mouth ..... and when it fits others their ethics are no good and are worthless ......

I gave sold in the past regular boas to up to 350$ - 400$ because ÙI decided they where worth that but without playing the adolescent " waht fits me " is ok what fits you its not .....

So spare us your " Love for animals " love for the hobby " and your twisted two faces talks where its ok for you to import """""" WC stuff - making tons of profit on them - some times missrepresennting them as locality stuff to be able to sell them as something special just like the exporter that sells them to you """""" all this hidden behind " conservation " You never gave anything to the community not even a single at the reptile club for the raffles ...... the freaking redtailed green rats where 12$ u.s EACH .....

Spare us the same old chorus ......or be sincere and stop having double standards ..... and make the profit that you judge ok for you ...... otherwise in good french ..... Basically ..... PRACTICE WHAT YOU PREACH or shut up ....

Haha, i'm glad you bring that up, Stav. I'm such a mean importer doing it for money and doing disinformation to sell more, haha, you make me laugh . I import snakes so that there are captive stocks to reproduce, and i since i founded my company, i placed an average of one order per year, of which i kept most and never made a single cent of profit out of it all .

It's ok, you can fight all you want and shine your image, which is totally fine. A lot of people would do the same thing if they had a value of several tens of thousands of dollars of snakes and some people would tell them that the morph business is wrong .

I'm not feeding anybody with selling snakes snakes, nor paying myself trips anywhere exotic, nor buying any fancy snake morphs. I love my snakes. I love them and i'm not doing it to make neither friends or money. I'm not an importer, i'm a biology student.

You have way more reasons than i do to fight and have arguments on forums, and you can have fun and impress whoever you want, it is totally fine. Defend your business and your investments, both money and time... you should!!!!

We're both trying to contribute to the hobby in very different ways. I wish it would be more constructive. Anyways, in the meanwhile, i'm going to be on the other side, doing what i think is best with what i have.

phil.

Hummm buying trips .... exotic trips ....buying fancy snake morphs ... value of several thousands of dollars ...image .... sells .... morph business is wrong ..... wow i must be rich and i dont know it ............ good attempt all hits and all misses .....

Ok go hide behind biology student title..... and go hide behind the numbers of imports you make ..... the facts are that you buy and ressell a zillion times your cost what youre importing from the wild ....... if you truely have a conscience , and view on conservation go to europe you will find every CB colubrid you want and can imagin instead of importing wc as i told you before, and dont tell me you dont have the money , you only have to raise it even if it takes time .... but it seems you want them now by importing wc on the spot when you want them .... this is a double sided ideology ......sorry

And as i said many times on this subject , I see wrong only the double sided ideology , because personnally I dont care if they are wc or cb or the profit you make or the price you sell everything .....just dont judge others like other importers all over canada and having a double standard ....

And no i dont have "more" reasons to discuss it as you say ...... the only reason is my passion for reptiles all snakes in particuliar ......

[bistrobob85111 0]

Oh well, i'm just sending the idea of double speach back to you because i think it fits pretty well, for once that i actually to send the ball back to you. I am very glad that i did. I dont think many people who think it would have because people would rather just not argue with you because it always ends up so unpleasant...

Anyways, i dont mind and i still look forward to working with you around AHM stuff. You really do put a lot of your time and efforts into it and although i dont agree with some of your opinions and views, it is something that i find very appreciable. Let's keep up the good work with that and maybe, if possible, make our further ideological discussions more fun.

Today, the coffee is great and its nice outside, the birds are singing and i sincerely wish a nice day to you .

phil.

[Patt1 0]

ouffff ...bon retour stav ...

hey stav promet moi que si on se pogne un jour moie pis toie que tu vas faire sa plus court que sa parceque tu vas me perdre hahahahhahahahahaha ...

pis hey jte pensais un ami ,tu pourrais partager ta fortune avec ma petite famille un peu siboire de serafin .....



slim

[stevie 0]

Wow now i'm really having fun being so immature,i think i should grow up to be a whore maybe i shall get more respect in the "LAME INDUSTRY" .It was a pleasure to you all who contributed to the Revolutionary thread while it lasted,but i choose no longer to display or go on this site or any site,i have much better things to do than to give my energy away to a bunch of "Industry Whores",yes i say "Industry Whores".For those who dont like it well i dont give a fuck .Signed Stevie AKA "FRENCHIE THE ROUGHNECK"

[stevie 0]

I must be acting like a two year old self centered narcistic D*#@head,so i guess there is only one thing left for me to say
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[elchef11 0]

de loin le meilleur post inutile du forum .... interressant !!!

[stevie 0]

Oui et fiere de etre elue le plus pire poste inutile sur le site.Vive le "Quebec Libre"

[Gab1111 0]

slim a écrit:

ouffff ...bon retour stav ...

hey stav promet moi que si on se pogne un jour moie pis toie que tu vas faire sa plus court que sa parceque tu vas me perdre hahahahhahahahahaha ...

pis hey jte pensais un ami ,tu pourrais partager ta fortune avec ma petite famille un peu siboire de serafin .....



slim

slim c que tu sais pas comment y la eu sa fortune...

Pas tout le monde qui on les genoux solide pi une grande bouche...

[Melanie76 0]

Stav, I think what may be happening here, is not so much what you've said, but how you said it. I know its hard to portray tone, etc...over the internet, but it was like you came in swinging out of no where. I don't think any one here has a problem with someone expressing their opinion, agreeable to theirs or not. But, it's the way your opinion was presented. To me, you came in very agressively.... I was like..Wow.. he's pissed. I took it as you wanted those involved in this thread to leave. I think the language/internet barriers have caused it to be taken the wrong way.

I hope the thread continues as it was..but, it's looking unlikely.