Are They Really The Same????

[deadvenom-x 0]

I dont know if many people here know about False Water Cobras with species etc etc. So I will put in a brief explanation to what this is all about.

Hydrodynastes gigas is sold in 2 different color forms. Yellow and grey. People have always thought of them as being the same species as they can interbreed, they look basically the same etc etc. Now, I beg to differ. I may not have been keeping FWCs for a long time, but I have seen enough to think otherwise. I own 1.1 grey FWCs. A friend of mine has 1 grey and 3 yellows. I have noticed that the grey FWCs have flattened heads, more scales around the eye and a slightly more reduced pattern than the yellows. The yellow ones have a big boofy rounded head with less scales and seem to be more banded than the greys. Now, the problem is the crossbreeding here. How many times has this been done? How pure are they exactly? That is what stops me from checking out google photos for comparison as some look greyish yellow and share both characteristics...to me, these are obvious "crosses". So what I did is took the most distinct grey looking FWCs and the most yellow ones to compare. Lucky for me, I own some and so does my friend. Take a look at the link quickly and I will add photos to this blog as well... again, the crossbreeding poses an issue for comparing, but with what I show, what do you guys think? The same or different species/subspecies?? I dont have a scale count as of yet for the yellow, as Im waiting on that.

In the mean time, the grey FWC scale count:

Hydrodynastes gigas – Gray

Dorsal Scale Count: 19

Ventral Scale Count: 157

Subcaudal Scale Count: 65

Anale Scale: Single

Eye ScaleCount: 8 total

Preocular Scale Count: 4

Postocular Scale Count: 3

Supraocular Scale Count: 1

Supralabial Scale Count: 8

Sublabial Scale Count: 9

Please note that this comparison photo should say 8 scales for the Grey, not 7.



Grey:



A google photo grey



and yellows


google photo yellow- one scales looks like two but close inspection revealed one


Check out this link on my site on FWCs... the more detailed comparison in writing is at the bottom of the FWC info, and to the right there are photos and a link to more photo comparisons.

Just click "False Water Cobra". http://www.wix.com/blitzkriegreptiles/br#!__species-info


Let me know what you guys think

Please, just realize this is all opinion, not factual...I have had people "rip me apart" on this subject thinking I was saying they ARE different..I just "think" - by opinion they are. I am aware I do not have enough individuals to make it "significant" but hey, it's something

[J-N Turcotte 0]

could be the same or could just be closely related.

The question is what makes a snakes species a species in it's own.

[blind 0]

to be 100% sure, I think it would require DNA testing... It could maybe be sub-species, or simple gene variations as in Dumbo vs regular rats (different head and body shape, but they're both Norway rats!)

[diadophis1 0]

Actually, large color variation in a specie is not uncommon, the best exemple is the eastern garter snake (T.s.sirtalis).

Scalation may also vary slightly in some specie and/or specimen but its more unusual.

For the head shape, I don't think it's a good diagnosis too ; head shape may also vary from a specimen to another but in some case, differ in sex (ex: in brown snake Storeria dekayi ssp.).

There is 3 species in the Hydrodynastes genus ; bicinctus (with 2 ssp.) , gigas and melanogigas.

The best thing to do it's to try to get some key features of all specie and make a comparison !

[deadvenom-x 0]

diadophis a écrit:

Actually, large color variation in a specie is not uncommon, the best exemple is the eastern garter snake (T.s.sirtalis).

Scalation may also vary slightly in some specie and/or specimen but its more unusual.

For the head shape, I don't think it's a good diagnosis too ; head shape may also vary from a specimen to another but in some case, differ in sex (ex: in brown snake Storeria dekayi ssp.).

There is 3 species in the Hydrodynastes genus ; bicinctus (with 2 ssp.) , gigas and melanogigas.

The best thing to do it's to try to get some key features of all specie and make a comparison !

That makes sense! T.s. sirtalis is a good example for that..I do recall finding all red/black, black and yellow/black as well as orange/black...however no skeletal structure difference?
I just find it bizarre as both male and females can have both coloration/structure and even the babies look totally different. I would look into bicinctus and melanogigas if any were even available in captivity Im still curious to see what the full out scalation is on the whole body of the yellow ones. Still waiting for it however,

[J-N Turcotte 0]

Well I also think that color is not to be considered in that case.

What define the species is more related to the body shape, in that case mostly the scales.

[deadvenom-x 0]

J-N Turcotte a écrit:

Well I also think that color is not to be considered in that case.

What define the species is more related to the body shape, in that case mostly the scales.

I agree. It wasnt so much the color that had me wondering. It was the head shape which is obviously very different when viewed in person and the scalation on the face. I just hope my friend hurries with the scale count with his FWCs lol!

[diadophis1 0]

A good way to find quality litterature, with a lot of field guides and other pretty interresting book is to go in some universitys library.

Some are good other pretty poor; in Sherbrooke's university, the herpetology department really s*cks and there is pratically nothing, but going to McGill in downtown Montreal and this is the ''herpetologist paradise library'' !!!

I don't know if you have a lot of university with a good biology department in Toronto, but if it's the cas I definetely reccomand to you to get an eye on their collection.

You can also try by accessing some PDF on the internet !

[deadvenom-x 0]

diadophis a écrit:

A good way to find quality litterature, with a lot of field guides and other pretty interresting book is to go in some universitys library.

Some are good other pretty poor; in Sherbrooke's university, the herpetology department really s*cks and there is pratically nothing, but going to McGill in downtown Montreal and this is the ''herpetologist paradise library'' !!!

I don't know if you have a lot of university with a good biology department in Toronto, but if it's the cas I definetely reccomand to you to get an eye on their collection.

You can also try by accessing some PDF on the internet !

I have been researching it as much as possible however there is absolutely nothing online about it. I could check out the universities here...chances of finding anything however are not so high. I know someone who has a PHd in biology and herpetology but he doesnt believe is subspecies. FWCs are FWCs and Boa Constrictors are Boa Constrictors...Peruvians, Colombians etc are the same thing with a different "color". which I can see why he says that. Each to their own with that. So if I asked that is what he would say, as I already have asked before lol. I guess getting my hands on some of his books may help however.

[deadvenom-x 0]

Just curious to see what you say.

Burmese Pythons and Indian Pythons were considered a subspecies because of the color/pattern and scales around the eye? The supraocular scale slightly enlarged to be exact.

As well as Crotalus and Sistrurus, only difference for classification are the head scales the run from the rostral and run to the neck as all members of Crotalus have granulated scales while those in Sistrurus have large plated scales.

I cant see why the FWC's would be different?

[diadophis1 0]

Being a ''taxonomy lover'', I could talk you about that for hours !

To answer your question, yes it is possible that some differences found in your FWC indicate a different taxon, but it could also mean nothing.

If I come back in your exemples, burmese pythons have been recently elevated to full specie status, so it is not a ssp of the indian.

In the case of rattlesnakes of the genus Crotalus, there is actually 35 species into this genus and some are quite differents in coloration, body shape and structure and scalation. It's not all species who have only granulated scale on the top of the head, some other have head plates as Sistrurus. Well, these scales are not pronounced as in Sistrurus, but they are there!

Before saying that there is a possible taxonomic difference look these 2 points; In the first case, if you don't caught by yourself the snake, you probably don't know the exact locality of your animal. So I think captive animal should not been used for taxonomic purposes.

Also, I think your sample (both snakes from you and your friend) is too small to be very concluding.

I know there is some evident differences between the 2 specimens but don't forget this fact; if in some case the scutellation (body row, head scalation, number of ventral e.t.c.) is relatively stable, in other cases it can be quite variable inside a single specie. So it is important do not compare with other taxon, because every cases are different.

I am currently working to translate you the ''Hydrodynastes'' part of the book and it will give you a better idea of the diagnosis of both bicinctus and gigas.

Don't worry, I know taxonomy is sometime very complicated and there is many reasons for that; too much people blend opinion with real evidence and if opinion change from people to people, then taxonomy will change too! Fortunely, there is MtDNA analysis, but they are still very expensive ......

[deadvenom-x 0]

Your points are very convincing and I can understand why you say otherwise!

I am just very stubborn as my gut feeling thinks otherwise Even if it isnt the case, I still will only breed yellow x yellow and grey x grey for the sake of my stubbornness.

I totally agree with the wild animals versus the captive ones. That is where I feel I am stuck. IF they are indeed different, who knows which have been crossbred and for how long etc etc. If I had the funds to go to South America for a while, I would do it in a heart beat! This is something I want to look into, and well, if I am wrong, that is just fine because it puts the debate to rest

[deadvenom-x 0]

Just something I want to post I found interesting..more photos LOL. I am very stubborn

Grey and Yellow, Grey has 8 ocular scales, Yellow has 6 ocular scales



Grey and Yellow,Grey has longer, thinner head and scales, Yellow has rounder head and rounder scales



ocellated spot before head on Yellow


Greys have no ocellated spot before head


Grays have no banding between larger bands/blotches,Yellow has more pronounced banding/blotches with banding inbetween



and grey compared to grey...both look the same? Female(bottom) is going into shed


I need more subjects to check out...adrfgjghjdfdg