IBD and other deseases in snakes ....

[Stav 0]

Duff a écrit:

You breed boas - right? I would love to relate to you my experiences with asymptomatic IBD in my locality boa collection (5+ years). Do you think that a discussion that would include hearing about how some of my Country's foremost IBD researchers are fuming about how the boa community is ignoring this disease would be good for business? Or sharing some nasty e-mails I got from some well-respected boa breeders accusing me of hurting their sales? If so, my hat's off to you. If not, well, let's just say that maybe we are in agreement that the amorphous content of the Revolution thread may be a good thing after all.

You asked who "we" were......well, I am just a guy with an opinion. If my opinion offends - debate me and try to change it. I promise I won't take any questioning of my morals and values personally.

Regards,

Craig

Nope Craig I will not challenge you anything or make you change any opinion you have .... for me every one is free to breath , eat or believe anything they want , we are in a free world at least canada and the states .....

You have an opinion on something I might have another one on one subject depending or tow persons experiences . This said , no matter views , opinions , debates etc.... lets say a boa , you dont hybernate or keep at a temperature of 10 celcius ..... do you get what I'm trying to say ?

Yep I get you when you talk about people telling you that its impossible and that you hurt sales . I also get you on your other views on that as well .....


A few questions to start with before going any further on the subject :

- What kind of vet was it

- Did necropsies have been done on those snakes ?

- If yes what type of testing ( the whole thing ) was done ?

- If yes where did all go for analysis for the inclusion bodies ?

- Were the snakes were euthanized while alive or necropsies done after death or even freezed and thawed ?


It would be great to start from there .... if you can answer these questions as precissly as possible I would appreciate it ..... more .... if you have the pathologists ( a vet is not a pathologist just if some had the question in their minds ) report scanned this kind of info on a forum is priceless .....

Other than that , IBD Comes from some Venomous snakes and colubrids to begin with , just to inform if some people were asking themselfs .

I cant talk for the states , but here in Canada its very rare and only now I heard of some case identified but cant say what kind of reptiles . My Vet never heard of any case before 2006 , I had tests done myself before that on one occasion , where I also got the info on rates of cases ( I spend from around 500$ to 1500$ a year with my vet .... just because I dont give to myself a simplist answer when a problem occurs or is about to occur no matter the problem .... i think its also the best thing to do to reverse false assomptions on deaseases that occur in reptile collections and things said at large on forums assumed by either the proprietor or an unqualified vet , is to test and treat everything thrue a qualified vet ..... it helps drop the false from truth and the maybes ..... just a litle parenthesis )

So lets start from there if you agree....

Edit *** Forgot again ..... just at large if it helps , IBD is many times missidentified by unqulified vet that dont make proper testing or no less on the subject. IBD is often Put in cause because of this instead of identifing bacteria , parasites , other viruses that cross the brain membrane and have identical signs as IBD .

[Duff1 0]

Stav a écrit:

Duff a écrit:

You breed boas - right? I would love to relate to you my experiences with asymptomatic IBD in my locality boa collection (5+ years). Do you think that a discussion that would include hearing about how some of my Country's foremost IBD researchers are fuming about how the boa community is ignoring this disease would be good for business? Or sharing some nasty e-mails I got from some well-respected boa breeders accusing me of hurting their sales? If so, my hat's off to you. If not, well, let's just say that maybe we are in agreement that the amorphous content of the Revolution thread may be a good thing after all.

You asked who "we" were......well, I am just a guy with an opinion. If my opinion offends - debate me and try to change it. I promise I won't take any questioning of my morals and values personally.

Regards,

Craig

Nope Craig I will not challenge you anything or make you change any opinion you have .... for me every one is free to breath , eat or believe anything they want , we are in a free world at least canada and the states .....

You have an opinion on something I might have another one on one subject depending or tow persons experiences . This said , no matter views , opinions , debates etc.... lets say a boa , you dont hybernate or keep at a temperature of 10 celcius ..... do you get what I'm trying to say ?

Yep I get you when you talk about people telling you that its impossible and that you hurt sales . I also get you on your other views on that as well .....


A few questions to start with before going any further on the subject :

- What kind of vet was it

- Did necropsies have been done on those snakes ?

- If yes what type of testing ( the whole thing ) was done ?

- If yes where did all go for analysis for the inclusion bodies ?

- Were the snakes were euthanized while alive or necropsies done after death or even freezed and thawed ?


It would be great to start from there .... if you can answer these questions as precissly as possible I would appreciate it ..... more .... if you have the pathologists ( a vet is not a pathologist just if some had the question in their minds ) report scanned this kind of info on a forum is priceless .....

Other than that , IBD Comes from some Venomous snakes and colubrids to begin with , just to inform if some people were asking themselfs .

I cant talk for the states , but here in Canada its very rare and only now I heard of some case identified but cant say what kind of reptiles . My Vet never heard of any case before 2006 , I had tests done myself on one occasion , where I also got the info on rates of cases ( I spend from around 500$ to 1500$ a year with my vet .... just because I dont give to myself a simplist answer when a problem occurs or is about to occur no matter the problem .... i think its also the best thing to do to reverse false assomptions on deaseases that occur in reptile collections and things said at large on forums assumed by either the proprietor or an unqualified vet , is to test and treat everything thrue a qualified vet ..... it helps drop the false from truth and the maybes ..... just a litle parenthesis )

So lets start from there if you agree....

Edit *** Forgot again ..... just at large if it helps , IBD is many times missidentified by unqulified vet that dont make proper testing or no less on the subject. IBD is often Put in cause because of this instead of identifing bacteria , parasites , other viruses that cross the brain membrane and have identical signs as IBD .

Reptile Vet, Stav.

- Live biopsies were done on the liver and the esophogeal tonsils - confirmed IBD in both animals. Necropsies were also performed on the male.

- Analysis of the inclusion bodies was done at UC Davis.

History:

I had a male and female tarahumara locality dwarf boas. Female was 6 years old, male 5. I had had both since they were a couple months old. They were the only boas in my collection.

The male began coming down with subclinical infections and anorexia. He began showing acute septicemia and was treated with several rounds of antibiotics. He would go through brief periods of remission and then get a new subclinical infection. He was checked for parasites, OPMV and tumors/growths. He never showed any neurological signs - as a matter of fact, neither snake did. He had full blood and metabolic panels done.

We then went for a liver biopsy which was negative. After consultation with other vets at Davis, my vet recommended:

(1) a biopsy of the esophogeal tonsils - positive.
(2) biopsies on the female boa and all pythons in my collection.

The female also came back positive for inclusion cell. All of the pythons came back negative.

Both boas were euthanized and I paid for additional necropsies which uncovered inclusion cells in the gall bladder and pacreas. I spent a small fortune in testing my animals.

Here's the rub.

I had not added a new animal in 11 months. None of the pythons or colubrids ever became sick. Here I sit almost 9 month removed from the ordeal and all of my snakes are healthy.

So one of my boas (or possibly both) were asymptomatic carriers in excess of 5 years. After talking to vets and other people who have gone through this, this is not an uncommon occurrence............

Your turn........

[Stav 0]

Duff a écrit:

Stav a écrit:

Duff a écrit:

You breed boas - right? I would love to relate to you my experiences with asymptomatic IBD in my locality boa collection (5+ years). Do you think that a discussion that would include hearing about how some of my Country's foremost IBD researchers are fuming about how the boa community is ignoring this disease would be good for business? Or sharing some nasty e-mails I got from some well-respected boa breeders accusing me of hurting their sales? If so, my hat's off to you. If not, well, let's just say that maybe we are in agreement that the amorphous content of the Revolution thread may be a good thing after all.

You asked who "we" were......well, I am just a guy with an opinion. If my opinion offends - debate me and try to change it. I promise I won't take any questioning of my morals and values personally.

Regards,

Craig

Nope Craig I will not challenge you anything or make you change any opinion you have .... for me every one is free to breath , eat or believe anything they want , we are in a free world at least canada and the states .....

You have an opinion on something I might have another one on one subject depending or tow persons experiences . This said , no matter views , opinions , debates etc.... lets say a boa , you dont hybernate or keep at a temperature of 10 celcius ..... do you get what I'm trying to say ?

Yep I get you when you talk about people telling you that its impossible and that you hurt sales . I also get you on your other views on that as well .....


A few questions to start with before going any further on the subject :

- What kind of vet was it

- Did necropsies have been done on those snakes ?

- If yes what type of testing ( the whole thing ) was done ?

- If yes where did all go for analysis for the inclusion bodies ?

- Were the snakes were euthanized while alive or necropsies done after death or even freezed and thawed ?


It would be great to start from there .... if you can answer these questions as precissly as possible I would appreciate it ..... more .... if you have the pathologists ( a vet is not a pathologist just if some had the question in their minds ) report scanned this kind of info on a forum is priceless .....

Other than that , IBD Comes from some Venomous snakes and colubrids to begin with , just to inform if some people were asking themselfs .

I cant talk for the states , but here in Canada its very rare and only now I heard of some case identified but cant say what kind of reptiles . My Vet never heard of any case before 2006 , I had tests done myself on one occasion , where I also got the info on rates of cases ( I spend from around 500$ to 1500$ a year with my vet .... just because I dont give to myself a simplist answer when a problem occurs or is about to occur no matter the problem .... i think its also the best thing to do to reverse false assomptions on deaseases that occur in reptile collections and things said at large on forums assumed by either the proprietor or an unqualified vet , is to test and treat everything thrue a qualified vet ..... it helps drop the false from truth and the maybes ..... just a litle parenthesis )

So lets start from there if you agree....

Edit *** Forgot again ..... just at large if it helps , IBD is many times missidentified by unqulified vet that dont make proper testing or no less on the subject. IBD is often Put in cause because of this instead of identifing bacteria , parasites , other viruses that cross the brain membrane and have identical signs as IBD .

Reptile Vet, Stav.

- Live biopsies were done on the liver and the esophogeal tonsils - confirmed IBD in both animals. Necropsies were also performed on the male.

- Analysis of the inclusion bodies was done at UC Davis.

History:

I had a male and female tarahumara locality dwarf boas. Female was 6 years old, male 5. I had had both since they were a couple months old. They were the only boas in my collection.

The male began coming down with subclinical infections and anorexia. He began showing acute septicemia and was treated with several rounds of antibiotics. He would go through brief periods of remission and then get a new subclinical infection. He was checked for parasites, OPMV and tumors/growths. He never showed any neurological signs - as a matter of fact, neither snake did. He had full blood and metabolic panels done.

We then went for a liver biopsy which was negative. After consultation with other vets at Davis, my vet recommended:

(1) a biopsy of the esophogeal tonsils - positive.
(2) biopsies on the female boa and all pythons in my collection.

The female also came back positive for inclusion cell. All of the pythons came back negative.

Both boas were euthanized and I paid for additional necropsies which uncovered inclusion cells in the gall bladder and pacreas. I spent a small fortune in testing my animals.

Here's the rub.

I had not added a new animal in 11 months. None of the pythons or colubrids ever became sick. Here I sit almost 9 month removed from the ordeal and all of my snakes are healthy.

So one of my boas (or possibly both) were asymptomatic carriers in excess of 5 years. After talking to vets and other people who have gone through this, this is not an uncommon occurrence............

Your turn........

Great stuff , this is what I call extensive good vet work .

For me with an adult albino Boa that a guy got from me 8 months before that jumped into conclusions and calls one friday night to say ..... the boa is sick it has IBD ....

I said put it on the first flight and send it back to me which he did first hour on the following monday . The snake arrived at the airport and what a surprise ....

It had feces jamed on it , with both upper lip and lower lip " missing all the scales " ( scale rot but around the mouth ) ...... it shows you the improper care some give to their animal ..... Not to say that not a milimeter of muscle or fat was present on the snake . ( I have pictures of that right on the spot at the airport and also pics at the necropsy . )

It showed all symptoms you can see on the internet and in vet books including crawling with its head shifting on one side like if there was no balance or a muscle jamed its neck crossthread .....

Going to the vet , it could have been anything , and this where I truely learned that IBD epidemics is often blowed out of proportions because of the internet and also because of other unqualified reptile vets , I decided not to make any biopsies , i prefered that the vet euthanised it so that " the freshest " samples possible of all organs susseptible of carrying Inclusions where sent to a pathology lab in Guelf ( ontario ) for testing to know exactly if inclusions where found somewhere in the snake. Some times it can be found in many organs , sometimes its present only in a few or one it would had been too many biopsies at one .

This Includes :

- Liver samples
- Intestine - stomach samples
- Spinal cord sample ( is this the word in english ? ) ( Moëlle épiniaire )
- Heart samples
- Lung samples
- Blood
- Gall Bladder
- Pancreas

The results came back negative , on the report even the pathologist states how much the samples were in perfect way and that its been a long time he didint work with such good specimens .....

No Inclusions was found in any sample .

It had encephalitis ( pretty commonly mistaken for IBD ) causes by bacteria or another virus .

Offcourse all this because of poor maintenance like desinfection .....

This is a good example on how things get distorted thrue the net by " assumptions ". Without proper vet work IBD would have been the cause in the mind of the guy but changed his mind when i sent the pathology tests results .

[Stav 0]

Distorted stuff as i mentionned like this happen everyday on the net which brings me to the Spider Ball Example to name only this one....

Everybody is assuming that the head thing is something genetic thing. Some have it and some dont . When someone knows a fare ammount of deseases .... bacteria , mychos , protozoans , parasites , viruses etc.... can cause exactly the same thing , take bacterial encephalitis for example that damages the brain on a declared episode ..... well the snake will live with a damged brain , eating and doing his normal stuff even breeding , the only thing will be his coordination .... how come nobody makes necropsies while the snakes are alive to drop assumptions and make it 1+1=2 instead of putting everything on genetics when something like that comes out or even a kink on a snake ?

As i said once on an english forum .... how come you dont hear people that say I've done the testing , i cant beleive with the tons of spiders been produced all these years that no one did it at least once . I asked this question directly to some " breeders that have nice well constructed sites in the us " but nobody could answer my question ..... even .... some just didint cared answering the mails .... its all fishy .... either some breeders dont care spending money for those kind of things or they simply dont care .....( note someone might have done it now its been a while what i'm talking about . )

What about if its some kind of virus or bacteria present in the mother transmits to the babies as a whole , partially or no one just before the shelling of the egg ? Healthy CB babies can carry a bunch of things that are transmittes from the mother .... how come these things are not taken in considerations ?

Today , a kink , a head shake , non eaters , good eaters etc....... everything comes to genetics but at least thats what people assume everyday and on the net its blowened out of proportions making it a huge collective brainwashed paranoia .

get what I mean ?

[Duff1 0]

This is a fairly misunderstood issue - mainly because people tend to think "neurological" or "stargazing" when it comes to IBD.

As you are well aware, IBD presents itself in a variety of ways - all of which could be attributable to a host of other ailments. Stomatitis, anorexia, respiratory infections, regurgitation, scale rot, septicemia, subclinical infections and, yes, even star-gazing are not only all symptoms of IBD, but also symptoms of other afflictions.

While going through our IBD ordeal, I learned many thing from people dealing with a researching the disease. First and foremost was that this virus is very similar to HIV in that it can lie dormant (asymptomatic) for years and then hit. No one knows for sure what the trigger is or even if there is one. People who have battled the disease and who treat frequently refer to afflicted snakes as going through a complete immune system meltdown - tumors, infections, etc. when it hits full blown.

I spoke to a gentleman who lost a 15 year old suriname to cancer of the liver. The necropsy confirmed this. However the necropsy also showed inclusion bodies in the liver, the pancreas and other organs. He then had four other boas in his collection biopsied - all had inlcusion cells. All were asymptomatic.

If you get past the crap posted on the forums - anecdotal stuff gleaned from various wikipedia-style summaries from uninformed sources, the fact that animals can be asymptomatic for years and still infect animals that are not asymptomatic (pythons for example) is downright scary.

So what's the point of recommending a 6 month quarantine on all boas if the snake can carry the disease well past that time period? Add in that the biopsies are expensive and not 100% accurate - for inclusion cells can be, for example, in the pancreas but not the liver, or in the liver but not the gall bladder - you get the picture.

No one knows how prevalent it is because the testing is hit and miss and so damn expensive. Animals die all the time and very few people bother to necropsy. So in the end, we have no idea of the scope, the transmission and no way to screen it. It may not always be a death sentence in boas, but certainly is in pythons and crotalids. On top of it, many of the big breeders here in the States brush it off as inconsequential.

In a recent article, on of our foremost researches into IBD, Dr. Eliot Jacobson quietly admonished the reptile community for not assisting researchers in helping with IBD and reminded us of our ethical obligations as breeders and owners. I quote from one of his articles:

"Snakes make up approximately 19% of all reptiles kept as pets. Of these, boa constrictors and pythons - especially ball pythons - are bred in large numbers for the pet trade. Because many IBD-infected boid snakes may not show outward signs of the disease, infected snakes considered healthy have been sold. We do not know what percentage of snakes infected with IBD will develop clinical symptoms and how many will remain clinically healthy. It is possible that latent infections can persist for long periods.

Thus it is a snake breeders obligation to make sure that quality and healthy animals are being sold. Part of this is making a significant investment in important research efforts to solve the mysteries of this insidious disease and others like it. Bird breeders have done this and there is no reason it cannot be done with reptiles. Ensuring healthy and disease-free animals should be the primary responsibility for those who breed and keep them."

So how in the hell do boa breeders who turn their noses at the potential prevalence and even existence of this disease reconcile their ethics with this admonition from a leading researcher? Have they no shame?

[Stav 0]

yep nothing more to say from my part you talked about pretty much everything concerning IBD .... this is all what i have in my book . Me too I laugh a bit at myself first because the first things you learn in past books and publications about reptile care and deseases about quaranteen is 6 months recommendations . Some snakes might have it for years its a retrovirus , asymptomatic as you say just like aids .... infact the snakes can have it the majority of their life without noticining it way more than 5 yrs, not even having other clinical signs during their life ... Quaranteen is good for things like mites , ticks , bacterial , internal parasites etc.... but again all these it might be very difficult to notice and might as well be hidden until a stress , a down temperature , etc... comes for the snake to start symptoms....

( Thanks for the pancreas and gall bladder i forgot to mention those in the testing ) ....

For your question i dont really know .... i think every reptile keeper not only boa keepers should be aware and learn about the deseases of their reptiles . The most important to do as i use to say , is bring your animals to a " qualified" reptile vet and make your biggest possible to necropsy the dead ones , if possible just before they die . for me my experience thrue the vets and the vet bills I see it like a private course where you learn and see and understand everytime more and more .... the amount people put in veterinary care versus the knowledge is priceless even if you give an arm or leg.

[Duff1 0]

Stav a écrit:

yep nothing more to say from my part you talked about pretty much everything concerning IBD .... this is all what i have in my book . Me too I laugh a bit at myself first because the first things you learn in past books and publications about reptile care and deseases about quaranteen is 6 months recommendations . Some snakes might have it for years its a retrovirus , asymptomatic as you say just like aids .... infact the snakes can have it the majority of their life without noticining it way more than 5 yrs, not even having other clinical signs during their life ... Quaranteen is good for things like mites , ticks , bacterial , internal parasites etc.... but again all these it might be very difficult to notice and might as well be hidden until a stress , a down temperature , etc... comes for the snake to start symptoms....

( Thanks for the pancreas and gall bladder i forgot to mention those in the testing ) ....

For your question i dont really know .... i think every reptile keeper not only boa keepers should be aware and learn about the deseases of their reptiles . The most important to do as i use to say , is bring your animals to a " qualified" reptile vet and make your biggest possible to necropsy the dead ones , if possible just before they die . for me my experience thrue the vets and the vet bills I see it like a private course where you learn and see and understand everytime more and more .... the amount people put in veterinary care versus the knowledge is priceless even if you give an arm or leg.

Okay Stav - now here's where we link back to the Revolution thread...........

With a couple of posts in this thread, you've proven yourself more ethical than some other boa breeders - namely the ones who tried to get me banned from two forums for posting the same exact information. The ones who were screaming that I was ruining there business and that "there is no such thing as IBD."

I always love to hear from someone like yourself who takes proper care of his animals and supports the scientific community when they strive to help and better OUR community.

This is about passion and this is about ethics. The big box boa breeders who whined back to the moderators on other boards when I tried to explain what I was learning about IBD are on the other end of the scale. You know, the end that supports making a profit at all costs. Not caring that they may be spreading a disease through collections. To me the worst thing about IDB was having to euthanize two beloved pets. That male tarahumara spp. (Diego) used to wrap himself around my head while I pulled weeds or did other work in the garden. My son used to read to the female (Ana) when he was much younger - convinced that she liked it.

To them the worst thing about IBD is that it translates to a loss of business. That's a lack of ethics. That's the difference between caring for an animal and caring for the dollar.

........and that's why I post on the Revolution thread. Sometimes it's nice to be in the company (figuratively) of people who hold dear the same principles.

[Stav 0]

Craig , for me all this has no link to any kind of revolution or revolution thread . Lets not get into this .

I understand you anger if you gave accurate info on boards and had concequences . But each board has its own rules and ideas . For my part i never been moderated on this subject or for expressing my views on stuff like ethics and morals of the hobby . I had some issues with an american board were i spoke about something that was untrue and got moderated .... and i'm fine with it because everyone is free to run its stuff at his will .

Duff a écrit:

I always love to hear from someone like yourself who takes proper care of his animals and supports the scientific community when they strive to help and better OUR community.

This is about passion and this is about ethics. The big box boa breeders who whined back to the moderators on other boards when I tried to explain what I was learning about IBD are on the other end of the scale. You know, the end that supports making a profit at all costs. Not caring that they may be spreading a disease through collections. To me the worst thing about IDB was having to euthanize two beloved pets. That male tarahumara spp. (Diego) used to wrap himself around my head while I pulled weeds or did other work in the garden. My son used to read to the female (Ana) when he was much younger - convinced that she liked it.

I understand everything you say .

A virus like IBD though I think even if everybody would make his best to test and re- test everything to give somekind of warranty of IBD free ( in the best of worlds ) I think its close to physicaly impossible . ..... close to impossible in the sense that the technology and the ways used to identify the desease is not enough advanced in present day to make it possible .

Lets imagine a senario where someone is conscient of the danger and makes all that is possible to do to these days to avoid it . He has 1 snake or many . He brings another one in , he puts it in a quaranteen room until biopsies are made .... until now everything is fine . Where it gets a bit tricky is when you know that a large quantity of organs have to be biopsied and tested ( a fair amout of tissues and it can be faulty ) and also know that Inclusions can be found at one spot on one organ but not necesseraly in all organs ... how do you do it ? How do you take a sample of a small snake's brain to bring for biopsy ? What about if the inclusions are located in the brain only and you need to find out ? Understand what I mean ?

I think that unfortunatly until there is a simple test like in other animals to prevent one desease , there is not much to do other than taking all the necessary actions when 1 animal is identified with Inclusions .

There has to be someking of testing like easy blood sample testing that needs to be invented so that people are able to controle- irradicate an outbreak even before it starts . We know that blood testing means nothing in this case but you get the idea ?

For now I think what can be made is to inform everyone that gets into the hobby thrue education that somekinds of deseases like IBD but many other deseases as well are dangerous to their animals and also to humans . In the sense that no one entering in this hobby thinks that he is untouchable by deseases and has or will always have deseases free animals or collecitons.... and that one day everything is ok and the next everything could be euthanised or dead . Understand what i mean ?