Bienvenue à la Révolution!

[Nir 0]

Anybody here read "The Lizard King"? I am currently reading it, and I am surprised by the book for now... The content gives somewhat of an idea of the evolution (or should I say de-evolution (yes and no in some points) of our hobby)

A very interesting read... There is a passage that describes somewhat how many Indigos were smuggled out of florida... It is not hard to imagine why they are getting rarer these days as I imagine there are still smugglers of couperi out there...

[Spankenstyne 0]

Nir a écrit:

Anybody here read "The Lizard King"? I am currently reading it, and I am surprised by the book for now... The content gives somewhat of an idea of the evolution (or should I say de-evolution (yes and no in some points) of our hobby)

A very interesting read... There is a passage that describes somewhat how many Indigos were smuggled out of florida... It is not hard to imagine why they are getting rarer these days as I imagine there are still smugglers of couperi out there...

I haven't yet. Have heard some of the stories over the years but kinda torn on buying the book or not. I have a feeling my morbid curiousity will take over in the end though hah. It'll probably just make me mad.

[Nir 0]

Spankenstyne a écrit:

Nir a écrit:

Anybody here read "The Lizard King"? I am currently reading it, and I am surprised by the book for now... The content gives somewhat of an idea of the evolution (or should I say de-evolution (yes and no in some points) of our hobby)

A very interesting read... There is a passage that describes somewhat how many Indigos were smuggled out of florida... It is not hard to imagine why they are getting rarer these days as I imagine there are still smugglers of couperi out there...

I haven't yet. Have heard some of the stories over the years but kinda torn on buying the book or not. I have a feeling my morbid curiousity will take over in the end though hah. It'll probably just make me mad.

It WILL make you mad, but it is still quite enjoyable and very interesting.

[Jon Davidson 0]

Spankenstyne a écrit:

Happy to also report that our female horsfieldi dropped two more eggs. She started digging yesterday so we knew it was coming, but surprising overall. I've read that two or three clutches are possible but I had expected if it happened, to be much later in the year.

Best of Luck with this project, Mr. Spankenstyne. I wonder if it might be possible for you to please keep us updated on this? It would certainly make for an interesting photo-essay for the Lounge. Sincerely, Jon Davidson .

[Jon Davidson 0]

Nir a écrit:

Anybody here read "The Lizard King"? I am currently reading it, and I am surprised by the book for now... The content gives somewhat of an idea of the evolution (or should I say de-evolution (yes and no in some points) of our hobby)

A very interesting read... There is a passage that describes somewhat how many Indigos were smuggled out of florida... It is not hard to imagine why they are getting rarer these days as I imagine there are still smugglers of couperi out there...

Could you please provide us with the author, date, publisher and ISBN number for this book, Mr. Nir? Sounds like it might be an good read. Sincerely, Jon Davidson .

[Nir 0]

Most certainly!

The Lizard King : The true crimes and passions of the world's greatest reptile smugglers, Brian Christy, Twelve 1st Ed., ISBN-13: 978-0-446-58095-3.

[D. Pogue 0]

I read "The Lizard King" a while ago, and I would recommend it to anyone looking for some insight into the often sleazy "industry" end of the Reptile Hobby. On balance, the author treats the subject matter and the various characters (both the "good guys" and the "bad guys") fairly and even-handedly. The reader is allowed to more-or-less make up his or her own mind about the people and events depicted in the book, since the author does not employ the usual "attack-style" or sensationalizing journalism techniques that might have made the book more contentious (but not more interesting, I think). All of the major players are treated here as fully developed characters, not as one-dimensional cartoons, and their words and actions are generally allowed to speak for themselves.

From my own somewhat limited direct personal knowledge of the many "reptile people" presented in the book, it appears to me anyways that most are given fair treatment, and that most of the facts presented likely would not be disputed by any of the main participants. Some involved more directly might quibble on some details, and no doubt some individuals are displeased to see this book in print. A minor criticsm I would have of the book itself is the lack of an index, which makes finding names and specific incidents a rather laborious task.

Persons with a geniune passion and respect for living creatures in general, and for reptiles in particular are likely to be appalled and angered by much of the routine, "business-as-usual" conduct documented here by Mr. Christy, and as such will feel a connection with the investigation and prosecution side of the story. Those individuals who continue to use reptiles as a springboard to expensive luxury cars and an embarrassing sort of half-assed Reptile Celebrity lifestyle will more likely side with the smugglers/poachers/wholesalers/distributors whose contempt for all living things is readily identifiable on almost every page of the book.

Regards,
D

[JSI 0]

The book is a good read for those that want to see how the "industry" works.
It's very interesting to read about the people that view reptiles as nothing more than a product. It changed my opinion of several "Big Names" here in Canada. People that just want to sell reptile and don't actually have any real interest in them, although they want the public to think they "care"

Other good books are “The Snake Charmer” by Jamie James (I know Don has this one)( ISBN - 10:140130995X ISBN - 13:9781401309954) and Snakebit by Leslie Anthony (ISBN - 10:1553652363 ISBN - 13:9781553652366). The later has a Canadian perspective on herpetology.

Jeremy

[Spankenstyne 0]

Citation :

Best of Luck with this project, Mr. Spankenstyne. I wonder if it might be possible for you to please keep us updated on this? It would certainly make for an interesting photo-essay for the Lounge. Sincerely, Jon Davidson .

Jon, absolutely.

Don & Jeremy thanks for the synopsis. It's what I figured and although it'll irritate and anger me, I'll probably end up picking it up anyways. Thanks for the other suggestions as well Jeremy, I haven't read either of those.

[D. Pogue 0]

Spankenstyne a écrit:

It's what I figured and although it'll irritate and anger me, I'll probably end up picking it up anyways.

On the subject of "irritation and anger", Chris, I find myself becoming increasingly "angry and irritated" at the relative paucity of Thamnophis images and references here in The Lounge. Aside from a passing mention by valued contributor "beekeeper" at the bottom of page six, this group of amazing snakes seems to have gotten the brown end of the stick here. I simply can't seem to find any other references to Garter snakes or their allies in here at all. "Is that right?", I ask you all.......

beekeeper a écrit:

And the guy keeps garter snakes, oh great be so proud of your little garter snakes like a 10 year old kid would, LMAO. How much are your little garter snakes worth, Mr.."reptile expert"?? Prolly your whole collection is worth less than one of my breeder Bees.

This deplorable situation doesn't seem right or proper to me, and so in that regard I have decided to research these under-represented serpents and post some of my photographic results from the past week or so right here and now on Repticlic. It's all part of my concerted effort to alienate virtually everyone who isn't in the "one per cent of the ten per cent" of The Reptile Hobby. If you're looking for the recipe for the creation your very own Neurological Nightmare or Genetic Junkpile, the following photo-essay is not for you. If you have an interest in things that are not contrived/orchestrated/deformed/debased or otherwise concocted for novelty and profit..........."This post's for you" .

Despite the recent spate of bad weather here in Southern Ontario, they're "out"..........and they're breeding up a storm..........


































The "good news" is........Lots more wild Thamnophis images to come.

The "bad news" is........Lots more wild Thamnophis images to come .


Regards,
D.

ps -

pps - "Prolly"

ppps-

pppps -

[Nir 0]

Great shots Don! Those garter pics are killing me! so far, this is the only herp I've managed to photograph in 2009... And it was almost frozen. hehe



Next hot day should be coming out day for garters I guess.

Oh, and sorry don, but didn't you know? Easter is off this year...

http://www.fieldherpforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=24011

[Spankenstyne 0]

Well I was everywhere from Calgary to Medicine Hat to Lethbbridge all week and only managed to *hear* a couple of those funny short n' rubbery snakes with legs that Nir posted. No pics yet to contribute to all things Thamnophis & dirty...

Nice pic(s) Nir.

Happy Easter indeed:

[D. Pogue 0]

Tom Petty a écrit:

Well, you can't turn him
Into a company man
You can't turn him into a whore
And the boys upstairs
Just don't understand anymore

The top brass don't like him
Talkin' so much
And he won't play what they say to play
And he don't need to change
What don't need to change

There goes the last DJ
Who plays what he wants to play
And says what he wants to say
Hey, hey, hey

And there goes your freedom of choice
There goes the last human voice
There goes the last DJ

Some folks say they're gonna
Hang him so high
'Cause you just can't do what he did
There's some things you just can't
Put in the minds of those kids

As we celebrate mediocrity
All the boys upstairs want to see
How much you'll pay for
What you used to get for free

There goes the last DJ
Who plays what he wants to play
And says what he wants to say
Hey hey hey hey
And there goes your freedom of choice
There goes the last human voice
There goes the last DJ

Thanks, Tom. I needed that.

The beauty of nature.......a tribute to Natural Selection........and a cool photo-essay at the same time............aw, who am I kidding?.....It's just another load of Garter Snake photos...........















































DP


ps-

pps -


ppps -

[Spankenstyne 0]

Another incredible photo essay, thanks for posting those. I always get a chuckle out of the lookout pose.
The snow's rapidly melting out here but those kinds of shots only help fuel the fire in the meantime. Nice comparison shot with the Dekay there.
That ps sure looks like Gina has been by already.

[stevie 0]

Hello to the lounge and it's respected members,a Happy Easter to you all.
And to all you "Jumpy & Worthless" haters out there;I leave you these lyrics:

The memory lingers on when
You were the same as us.(Not)
Three months old a child,
Still you lived off love & fuss

City baby,city baby,city baby attacked by rats!

Residing in a squalid place,
It can't be too much fun.
Your brain is getting eaten
away
By the rat living in your
Skull.

City baby,city baby,city baby attacked by rats!

A mutant at the age of one,
A human rodent cabbage.
It's hard to think a tiny thing
Can do that much damage.

City baby,city baby,city baby attacked by rats!

The memory lingers on when
You were the same as us.(Not)
Three months old a child.
You live off fame and greed.
And still you worship,the mutant God's indeed.

City baby,city baby,city baby attacked by rats!

[JSI 0]

Garters are cool !

Jeremy

[LD/50 0]

JSI a écrit:

Garters are cool!

Jeremy, could you please cite your sources?

You just can't come on here and make such a clearly biased statement about the "coolness" of such a boring, worthless species unless you're prepared to back it up with sereral "Google" sources! I know of one site in particular where the "experts" would show you all the "proof" you could want telling you that you're dead wrong. The "proof" would of course be in the form of a bank statement or maybe even the pink slips to a garage filled with BMW 7 series LOL!

Don, I have to say I am NOT "alienated" by the latest load of Thamnophis pics, far from it! Some of those photos are the best I've ever seen of any wild snakes. Just amazing pics, and a few are classics of wildlife photography. I personally could enjoy a huge picture thread with nothing BUT garters .

Thanks also for the Tom Petty reference, that CD is one of my favourites. The whole thing is about the destruction of art and music by money grubbers and self serving whores, the "Cash is King" types. Sadly appropriate and relevant to our hobby in 2009.



steven

PS

PPS

[Spankenstyne 0]

Proof that Garter snakes are cool:
"It's science" - Ron Burgundy


Easter ps:

pps:

ppps:

[Pro_bug_catcher 0]

Spankenstyne a écrit:

Easter ps:

pps:

This python is the Holy Grail!

TIM: Yes, I can help you find the Holy Grail.
KNIGHTS: Oh, thank you.
TIM: To the north there lies a cave -- the cave of Kyre Banorg -- wherein, carved in mystic runes upon the very living rock, the last words of Ulfin Bedweer of Regett [boom] proclaim the last resting place of the most Holy Grail.
ARTHUR: Where could we find this cave, O Tim?
TIM: Follow! But! follow only if ye be men of valor, for the entrance to this cave is guarded by a creature so foul, so cruel that no man yet has fought with it and lived! Bones of four fifty men lie strewn about its lair. So, brave knights, if you do doubt your courage or your strength, come no further, for death awaits you all with nasty big pointy teeth.
ARTHUR: What an eccentric performance.
(Emphasis added)

ps: Jesus is dead... could there be a link?
pps:

[Jon Davidson 0]

A great photo-essay, Mr. Pogue(especially the melanistic Thamnophis). Thank you for posting this. Makes me want to get out and hunt some snakes... Sincerely, Jon Davidson .

[rancor_ 0]

Some great pictures of classic thamnophis. The odd godz have blessed them for sure. Could you imagine if they had as many aberrances as corn snakes? We could be sitting around debating about the "Canadian Market Value Of Genetically Broken Reptiles." A terrible fate that the Ask a Ball Python columnist knows all too much about. He probably envies little Suzie's cat. Afterall, when tea time is done, it gets to remove the ridiculous coloured getup.

Happy Easter!!!!


Post scriptum: Ventured a little too far north to see any live reptiles... But spring will be everywhere soon, Im sure of it.

[JSI 0]

LD/50 a écrit:

JSI a écrit:

Garters are cool!

Jeremy, could you please cite your sources?

You just can't come on here and make such a clearly biased statement about the "coolness" of such a boring, worthless species unless you're prepared to back it up with sereral "Google" sources! I know of one site in particular where the "experts" would show you all the "proof" you could want telling you that you're dead wrong. The "proof" would of course be in the form of a bank statement or maybe even the pink slips to a garage filled with BMW 7 series LOL!

Don, I have to say I am NOT "alienated" by the latest load of Thamnophis pics, far from it! Some of those photos are the best I've ever seen of any wild snakes. Just amazing pics, and a few are classics of wildlife photography. I personally could enjoy a huge picture thread with nothing BUT garters .

Thanks also for the Tom Petty reference, that CD is one of my favourites. The whole thing is about the destruction of art and music by money grubbers and self serving whores, the "Cash is King" types. Sadly appropriate and relevant to our hobby in 2009.

Don should consider going into the music industry, he has quite a talent and has some very good songs about the destruction of the art of snake keeping by money grubbing, self serving whores.

I like how when Jon ends a post with the words "Sincerely" he actually means it. Other people will use these words and it has no meaning at all.

Jeremy

P.S. Garter snakes are still cool.
P.S.S. Cribos are even cooler,...................... well they're at least as cool as Garters.

[rancor_ 0]

It seems me that it is rather commonplace in this, the hobby of reptile keeping, that everyone should be able to hold hostage in their domicile whatever they damn well please. I often wonder, “Why?” Philosophical of me I know, but think about it... Why should “we” be able to keep whatever “we” choose? There are reasons why I can’t have a goat in my front lawn, here in the beautiful mega-city where I reside. Most would probably not only be able to recognize the reasons for this, practical and otherwise, but would agree that I shouldn’t have a goat on my lawn. But then why the hell should a person be able to keep something that EATS prey as large as goats in their basement??

The answer, is simple, and yet not so simple. Do the Giant reptiles actually have a place in modern herpetoculture? Do crocs? Do hots?? I think it’s fair to say that most who have them, probably shouldn’t... And most that should have them never get to share and teach, because in one way or another....they shouldn’t have them either.... So that brings us back to keeping what we damn well please. Should the average person have access to ‘Top of the line’ monstrous carnivores just because they have a hundred bucks to spend on a new pet? I often wonder about the hoards of eggs these animals are capable of producing in one squirt. Sure everyone can build a chestofdrawers and stuff it full of P. Regius, but how many Canadians can really devote half of a room to house one single animal? Obviously, enclosure size suffers to fit the needs of the keeper...But where are all the pictures of the adult animals? What happened to them after the first year of power feeding, the likes of which only parallel to ducks raised for frois grois? Sure, it got 10 feet in 1 year and is now pounding back 7 pound bunnies and piglets, but how many animals actually see their 5^th birthday?? Or even 5 consecutive with the same owner?

Rights and freedoms are one thing, but to say it is a right to keep whatever we damn well please is idiocy. To think that any government agency would spend time and money to accredit and evaluate potential keepers of large, venomous or otherwise dangerous reptiles is a thought process I can’t even begin to comprehend.... And I keep reptiles! While this whole 3 meter, 2 meter no hots no crocs law seems to be fairly arbitrary to some, it sure seems perfectly legitimate in the eyes of the lawmakers. Should every taxpaying citizen foot the bill to send bylaw enforcers to herpetology class so they can differentiate between which species of ``giant`` they are staring at, or should we go to walmart with a dollar and buy a roll of string for them to measure with? A world that has inspectors able to identify the hybrid, mutant bastardization of the original animal is the same world that I can genetically modify birds of prey into gryphons in a chicken coup in my backyard. It’s easy for us to say ``ban by species``, but that is an unreal expectation on enforcement. We know better than them what has the potential to reach 9.84 feet... We should know better what species will actually obtain that size... Why is it so hard to concede so little to keep so much? It shouldn’t be the ``all or nothing`` that is wanted by some on both sides of the bylaw fence. The way I look at it, ``most of everything`` is good enough for me.

I am thankful that the area I live in had people working WITH the legislators as opposed to spouting rhetoric and waiting to take law makers to open court. What a stupid waste of time and money it would be to argue in open court ``Your honour, we the people have a right to keep and breed whatever we damn well please. These snakes are not only profitable, but they are broken genetically. Oh, and it doesn`t matter if that python can eat small ungulates, it is my right as a Canadian citizen to own and house them, even in residential areas. ``

That said, I do believe in the right to legally keep and breed whatever I damn well please, but in the absence of common sense, ones rights are downgraded to privileges and even those are diminished significantly.

Post scriptum: There are still keepers out there that are aware not everyone likes the creatures we choose to cohabitate with, and on occasion....they get elected... Right??
PPS: Sorry for the derailment, I`ve been on my best behaviour as of late and I don’t want to incur ``read-only`` privileges... I still like to be able to tell people what they`re doing is wrong!

[JSI 0]

Very well said rancor_.

Jeremy
P.S. Read only
P.S.S.that's what I get for not following the rules

[Spankenstyne 0]

I agree, very well said rancor_.

Fortunately I also live in a province where people worked with the legislators in creating the bylaws, instead of butting heads after the fact. While not perfect what we have are a very workable set of regulations. I can live with not keeping a few species I'd love to keep to be able to choose from so many alternatives.
The very same points you're making (though not as well stated as yours) have been repeatedly made in regards to some situations out west here, but had long since fallen on deaf ears to the I'll keep whatever I damn well want set.

[Nir 0]

Well, today was a great day!

Thamnophis have finally started coming out today, well maybe they started coming before, but today I noticed them... hehe

I took a pause from my studying and went to the great outdoors... Well actually not so great, just outside the city... hehe

Found some beautiful garters, all in shed, but still... beautiful

And another non-thamnophis snake, which was also a delight!



in situ

[cowboy xav 0]

has anybody there ever made herping in usa? because I'm in love with a species called mud snake Farancia abacura does anybody have picture of that species

ps, sorry for my poor english

here's a picture of a juvenil that I found on internet, just in case

[stevie 0]

Here are some more Garters to enjoy.

[cowboy xav 0]

the melanic one is awsome! a real beauty! great shots

[D. Pogue 0]

I think it's time for some uplifting music........maybe it's just me, but all the recent talk of "market value" and "sales" and "customer service" and "morph combos" has bummed me out a little. What better way to revive things here than with a cheery, happy little blues song??

Here's one that somehow got summarily excised from another site. I'm really not sure why it got deleted. The Thread it was part of wasn't even a "Picture Thread", come to think of it. It's such a catchy, pretty song too. Why would anyone erase beautiful music from their site? As Brian Wilson would say.........God Only Knows..........

Designer Snake Blues (aka "Investors' Paradise")

Intro: (female vocal chorus)

Gottagettapythonregius......oooooooooh
Gottagettapythonregius.........ooo ooooooo oooooh
Gottagettapythonregius.............oh yeah..........

Verse 1:

Savin' my nickels, savin' my dimes
Workin' all day 'til the sun don't shine
Gonna buy me some snakes of the BP kind
Look like they're made by Frankenstein
They gonna breed for me in double-time

(First guitar solo - WB)

Verse 2:
An' what will really blow my mind
Is when the buyers start to line
My big deep pockets with cash so fine
So I can board my yacht and dine
On lobster, caviar and wine

Bridge:

Oh yeah, I'm a millionnaire
A freakin' BP Millionnaire
Can someone please find me a chair?
Why do I feel such despair?
I really think I need some air

(2nd guitar solo - AB)

Verse 3:

Don't criticize my motives 'cause that's a crime
Just invest with me, buy the party line
And listen when I ring my chime
"Them de-formed snakes is mighty fine"
Excuse me now, I need the time
To count my cash and end the rhyme

(outtro: tenor sax solo, including the following taped "spoken words", layered in the mix)

"Whaddaya mean the payment's due tomorrow??" (panicky male voice)
"Anyone wanna buy these stupid snakes??" (angry male voice)
"I can't even afford to feed these damn things anymore!" (squeaky-voiced teen)
"I wish the hell I never heard of reptiles......" (frustrated, soft, defeated-sounding male voice)
"Sorry honey, I admit it, I screwed up....." (sobbing male voice)
"Investment-Quality WHAT???" (hysterical, shrieking female voice)
"That's it! I'm getting into Antiques!!!! " (angry male voice again)

(c) McKinley Morganfield/George R. Waters


As a point of interest, I will once again be rehearsing and recording this particular song over the next two weeks with a crack team of musicians at my state-of-the-art facility. I hope to have it recorded, mixed, and available for sale on CD at my table at the next Big Reptile Expo. Here's the list of players already committed to the recording sessions:

Guitar: Adrian Belew and W. Becker
Bass: Stanley Clarke and the late John Entwistle
Accoustic & Electric Piano: Thelonius Monk and Rick Wakeman
Tenor Sax: Wayne Shorter
Drums: Jim Gordon (freshly released from prison in California after killing his mother with a hammer in 1983)
Backing Vocals: Venetta Fields/Sherlie Matthews, Eric Hasler
Vocals: MODP and Ian "Lemmy" Kilmister, with a little help from Don Van Vliet.

Sounds like a fun project. I'm looking forward to working with these guys again........


All My Musical Best,
M/O/D/P

ps - Up next......A Blue-Ribbon Panel consisting of A.H. Wright, Carl C. Ernst, J.Alan Holman, Roger W. Barbour, and Paris D. Hilton debates the fine art of making your very own Bumble-Bee flavoured pet python!

[Spankenstyne 0]

Happy lil blues number goes nice with the smiling avatar.

Unfortunately like most great artists you'll only truly be appreciated long after the big dirtnap.

[Duff1 0]

My old man once told me that in Vietnam, in one engagement near the Laotian border, his CO had to call in a "broken arrow". Basically, what it meant was that their positions were so overrun by North Vietnamese that the only way they could win the fight was to call airstrikes in on their own positions

Well, here we sit on the eve of some serious draconian legislation coming down the pipe, HR669 to be exact: an open-ended bitch-slap of an answer to a question our little community sneered at answering for years....a broken-arrow of our own.

In the last few weeks, the State of Connecticut outlawed most opistoglyphs and dendrobates (along with rhinos, hippos and face eating chimps) - but keep your chins up ladies: it was posted on a well-known forum that no big name breeders of investment quality snakes are located in Connecticut - whew! However, other States will also follow suit, with or without the passage of the looming federal bill.

I remember a time (not so long ago) when the reptile community was not crawling with scammers and money-whores. When the emphasis was on the snakes and education, not the dollar signs. I'm not too old to remember those Norman Rockwell-esque days - and I clearly remember not being worried about one of my neighbors coming home with an albino monocled cobra or a hideous reticulated python morph.

Let's take a trip in my time machine to the present, where large varanids, hots and giant pythons have becomed the phallus-enhancers of the reptile world. Feeling a bit insignificant? Well, a large, dangerous exotic reptile will cure that........want to be different and mysterious? I have a nile monitor (along with free leash and harness) that you'll love!

Yes, for a quite a few years now, the reptile community has been more concerned with money than with enacting some sort of permit system or self-regulating body that would put some accountability into the "hobby". As a result, any inbred piece of trailer trash can can get on the phone and order himself up a large python or boa with no questions asked.

The result? Well, aside from burmese pythons, boa constrictors and nile monitors roaming Florida and eating pet cats, the press has started to notice these people getting killed and injured by their pets. Gaboon viper bites, reticulated pythons attacking toddlers - oh my............

Then there's the whole issue of the well-being of the animals.......how they are abandoned, mistreated and how many go to people without the first idea on how to care for them? How many forums have you seen where these people pop up, run up about 500 posts in a month, grow their collection and then *poof* disappear? While these may be encouraging trends to those who supply the morons with their animals, the rest of us have been rightly concerned.

So while cooler heads have been calling for a permit system, meeting with legislators to positively identify the issues and some sort of self-regulation, the big box breeders and their fan boys have been screaming about how the goverment has no right to regulate their hobby, and how the Feds can pry their reptiles out of their cold dead hands.......as a result, the responsible owners have been thrown in with the babbling rabble.

Well you jackasses, the crows have come home to roost - and by God if they aren't wearing Brooks Brother's suits and madly writing penal codes to go with their new laws. You never did figure out that the Constitution does not afford you the right to do whatever the hell you want. Your decades of irresponsibility are coming to an end and all of us are going to suffer for it.

It's our own "broken arrow" - a series of devastating strikes that are either going to kill us all, or leave the good guys just a bit injured - but able to regroup and rebuild.

The big names in reptile breeding are furiously rounding up their sheeple - writing letters and urging them forward into the fight. Yes, fighting so that they can continue to sell their overpriced, inbreed freaks of the animal world without any responsibility whatsoever.

I have no reservations whatsover with obtaining the permits required to keep my snakes. I hope the goverment ends up slapping the most stringent of permits on the ownership of large varanids, true hots and large constrictors.

I misplaced my faith a long time ago when I saw a *ahem* well "respected" breeder and author pimping retics as a good pet............and that faith went missing when I saw that genetically flawed reptiles were commanding steeper and steeper prices. I finally found my faith, dead and rotting when I saw that one of these snake "puppy" mills was getting into drymarchon.....

April 23 is only a few days away - stay tuned.

[Spankenstyne 0]

Interesting to see how it's going to play out.

I feel pretty fortunate to live in Alberta all things considered.. It was about 25 years ago a group of respected hobbyists & academics out here saw the writing on the wall and pre-emptively got together to work with the provincial government to come up with regulations & restrictions. This is the short version of how TARAS came to be. While our regs are far from perfect, they're certainly reasonable and workable.

Some of the big box folk out in BC for example scoffed at our regs for years as they essentially were unregulated (provincially anyways), and now they've come to their own broken arrow situation with some extremely restrictive regulations forced onto them. Not only have they lost the giants, crocs, and hots but also a ton of very commonly kept species. They had no voice in the process because they refused to believe it could happen. It's much tougher to change stuff after the fact than to be proactive. Sadly it appears it's a necessary evil if it cleans up the hobby some.

[Duff1 0]

Spankenstyne a écrit:

Interesting to see how it's going to play out.

I feel pretty fortunate to live in Alberta all things considered.. It was about 25 years ago a group of respected hobbyists & academics out here saw the writing on the wall and pre-emptively got together to work with the provincial government to come up with regulations & restrictions. This is the short version of how TARAS came to be. While our regs are far from perfect, they're certainly reasonable and workable.

Some of the big box folk out in BC for example scoffed at our regs for years as they essentially were unregulated (provincially anyways), and now they've come to their own broken arrow situation with some extremely restrictive regulations forced onto them. Not only have they lost the giants, crocs, and hots but also a ton of very commonly kept species. They had no voice in the process because they refused to believe it could happen. It's much tougher to change stuff after the fact than to be proactive. Sadly it appears it's a necessary evil if it cleans up the hobby some.

I am a full supporter of a strict permitting system for various species of reptiles. People who can properly afford to house and provide for their animals would have nothing to fear.

I find it curious that some of the biggest names in reptile breeding are against a permitting system. You'd think that these reptile experts would have a vested interest in making sure that these animals went to responsible owners.

[stevie 0]

Well put Mr.Duff,couldn't of put it in a better way.May i please add,that i hope this bill passes through,cause i would like to see these "Money Hungry Morph Whores" wiggle there way out of this one.For one they only think of them selves,two they only care about how much money it will bring them,three they really don't care about the conditions of there animals,Four they consider it a "Industry"(told to me by many breeders,etc..),five they misguide people with bad info...So all i can do for these Degenarates is hand them a box of.....



....and tell them to go sit on there porch and think real hard at what they have become and done to this hobby...Wake up call to all of you good and bad.Frenchie the Roughneck



Maybe then ,these "HotHead Big Time Breeders",will have cooled down there puny little heads of there's to realize that it's not worth it after all,and slither back under there rock they so happily crawled out from. P.S If any of you feel pointed at,or don't like my comments,well feel free to contact me and i shall give you your two minutes to share your anger,then and only then you shall get a Mr.Freeze from me.

[Spankenstyne 0]

Can I still get one even if I don't feel pointed at or angry?

[stevie 0]

Sorry,Spankenstyne the Mr.Freezes are only for the Elite Circle of the M.H.M.W. of this so-called hobby(Industry).You're not qualified for one. .Us peasants only qualify for hardened bread.

[JSI 0]

Duff a écrit:

I misplaced my faith a long time ago when I saw a *ahem* well "respected" breeder and author pimping retics as a good pet............and that faith went missing when I saw that genetically flawed reptiles were commanding steeper and steeper prices. I finally found my faith, dead and rotting when I saw that one of these snake "puppy" mills was getting into drymarchon.....

Your post Duff was a very good one, but this part in particular interested me. Some people would in the future hope there will be a “Sharp strain Albino Yellow Tailed Cribo”, and they will be able to sell if for the price of a mid size luxury car.

The hobby has gone to shit honestly. The majority kiss ass to the people that run the forums and support the “puppy mill” breeders why? They want to build a name for themselves. Be “well know” on a premier reptile website in the US or Canada and you are guaranteed to sell all your stock of deformities before they’ve even pipped out of the egg. At least that’s what they want you to think.

When some dicksmoker from the suburbs that runs an arsewhole of a store is the overlord of the “Reptile Hobby” well for me then it’s time to forget this crap and just sit back and look at my pets, yes they are pets to me. Not some baby crapping money making machine. When I sit back and watch them it makes me feel happy, no joke “happy”. It’s not a male enhancer just an enjoyment of something natural sitting in front of me, my own little piece of wild in my living room.

Jeremy

[Duff1 0]

JSI a écrit:

Duff a écrit:

I misplaced my faith a long time ago when I saw a *ahem* well "respected" breeder and author pimping retics as a good pet............and that faith went missing when I saw that genetically flawed reptiles were commanding steeper and steeper prices. I finally found my faith, dead and rotting when I saw that one of these snake "puppy" mills was getting into drymarchon.....

Your post Duff was a very good one, but this part in particular interested me. Some people would in the future hope there will be a “Sharp strain Albino Yellow Tailed Cribo”, and they will be able to sell if for the price of a mid size luxury car.

The hobby has gone to shit honestly. The majority kiss ass to the people that run the forums and support the “puppy mill” breeders why? They want to build a name for themselves. Be “well know” on a premier reptile website in the US or Canada and you are guaranteed to sell all your stock of deformities before they’ve even pipped out of the egg. At least that’s what they want you to think.

When some dicksmoker from the suburbs that runs an arsewhole of a store is the overlord of the “Reptile Hobby” well for me then it’s time to forget this crap and just sit back and look at my pets, yes they are pets to me. Not some baby crapping money making machine. When I sit back and watch them it makes me feel happy, no joke “happy”. It’s not a male enhancer just an enjoyment of something natural sitting in front of me, my own little piece of wild in my living room.

Jeremy

Jeremy:

Yes, Mr. Sharp is the newest dry fanatic. Sad, really, since he coined the term "investment quality".

I used to breed black-tails but got out of it in sheer disgust. I used to make customers sign "a right of first refusal". Basically, if they could not care for the snake or got scared of it (don't laugh - it happens more than some may think with drys), I got the animal back.

What I was seeing on an increasing basis was people buying these animals, nodding at my instructions and warnings, and then immeditely running to the forums to post pictures and accounts of their new "tough" snakes.

Invariably,the accolades from the other 19 and 20 year olds on the forums will die down, and it hits them that they are now left with a shit-spraying machine with lacerating teeth and a large appetite. Getting hit by a ball python or a boa or a blood is nothing compared to a full grown dry in feeding mode, as most of the people reading this already know.

So I got quite a few of them back - many in fairly crappy condition and many so neglected that it took months of handling and work to get them to the point where they regained their condition and got acclimated to routine tasks like cage cleaning and light handling.

So when a big box breeder begins working with drys, it's my biased opinion that no good can come out of it. These are not animals for the casual keeper and the idea of selectively breeding drys for coloration and mutations is nauseating.

At some point I will dig up some older e-mails from customers that did stupid things with their melanurus and frantically wrote me asking for help - the idiot who tried to feed his cribo in a separate feeding bin comes immediately to mind....

[D. Pogue 0]

Duff a écrit:

The big names in reptile breeding are furiously rounding up their sheeple - writing letters and urging them forward into the fight. Yes, fighting so that they can continue to sell their overpriced, inbred freaks of the animal world without any responsibility whatsoever.

I misplaced my faith a long time ago when I saw a *ahem* well "respected" breeder and author pimping retics as a good pet............and that faith went missing when I saw that genetically flawed reptiles were commanding steeper and steeper prices. I finally found my faith, dead and rotting when I saw that one of these snake "puppy" mills was getting into drymarchon.....

The problem with this sort of informed opinion is that it comes part-and-parcel with a little something called "historical perspective" and another little thing called "respect for Natural Selection". Generally speaking, these two concepts are neither valued by nor condoned by the majority of today's Herp Hobbyists, and they are in fact feared, reviled and ultimately dismissed by virtually all of the Big Time Morph Breeders. For obvious reasons.

In an ironic twist, one of the individuals who is now apparently a Drymarchon "expert" once laughed at me for keeping Yellowtail Cribos. This was a mere six years ago, and while I stood in front of a table filled with awful, washed-out designer reptiles, I was asked the question, "So what do you breed?" The question itself implied that one absolutely must "breed" reptiles in order to be taken seriously...........a revealing notion I think.............but I answered nonetheless with, "I just hatched out 23 Drymarchon corais corais". Far from the congratulations I might have expected from a Big Time Breeder, I was condescendingly and metaphorically patted on the head by this Celebrity Reptile Hero, who appeared not to recognize the species........or even the genus...........

In the past, I myself have been involved with legislators at two separate government levels in two separate efforts to effect positive changes to proposed restrictive new laws regarding the keeping of reptiles in captivity. The experiences in both cases really opened my eyes as to just how our Hobby is perceived by many publicly-paid officials. It would be fair to say that as a group, we don't have much credibility in their collective eyes. One person in authority actually commented to me directly that she found at least one of the "point men" on the Hobby side of the "fight" to be, in her words, "self-serving and sleazy". I balked at these words at the time, and then I proceeded to defend this individual rather vigorously, or, at least, as best I could. She reasoned (I would say rather accurately in hindsight) that such people are/were fighting increasingly restrictive legislation merely because they had profitable businesses to continue conducting, so I respectfully re-focused the discussion in the direction of all of the legitimate conservation work I and others had done and were continuing to do at the time. Some of this work was paid, but much of it was unpaid, and I made sure to mention all of the gratis educational presentations I and others had done over the years for various organizations. I mentioned the grade schools, the cottagers' associations, the nature clubs, the Native Reservation, the provincial youth prison, and the childrens' palliative ward. I backed up my claims with photo-albums, thank-you letters, thank-you posters, and the like. My point was made........some "credibility" was established........but I was surprised when I was then offered an "exemption" from whatever legislation was to be passed. I emphatically declined this offer, and in effect said, "I can assist you in your effort to do your job in a manner benefitting all of this city". While others persisted with a strident "all or nothing" position (driven by the "commerce" angle), I chose to work with legislators to establish legitimate reasons for them to understand our position as Hobbyists. I certainly cannot take more than my share of credit for the resulting favourable outcome, because there were several credible people involved in "the fight", but my belief now is that without the input of the people who didn't have any financial motivation for their involvement with both reptiles and the anti-legislation battle, the results would have been very different.

Curiously enough, the same defense rationale used at the time by the Business-Types and the Money & Morph people was the same as that often used by the purveyors of many of society's ills..........."There's a demand for it!"..........The legislators didn't buy that argument back then, any more than a court of law would accept it from a crack dealer or child pornography distributor. Like the courts, I don't think one can defend everything and anything one chooses to do with a commerce-based argument. At the time, it chilled me to fight alongside people who had open contempt for the living reptiles they bred/sold/profited from, but ultimately didn't care about. It was a concession I made at the time, for, I believed, "the greater good".

In the ensuing years, I have seen the Reptile Hobby degrade further than I ever thought possible. The obsessive focus on money above all else, on the "market value" of living creatures to the exclusion of virtually everything else, and the near-complete domination of the Hobby by those keeping, breeding, and selling only aberrant and genetically-compromised reptiles has led me to a startling conclusion.

I fought on the wrong side back then.

I won't make the same mistake again.

Because of what these profit-and-novelty-driven hi-jackers have done to our Hobby, I suspect I will ultimately find myself on the opposing side of the battle the next time it rages. And it will rage again, here and there, and everywhere where there are people who try to take priveliges and morph them into "rights"..........the "I'll keep whatever I damn well please, and I'll do with it whatever I want to"-types.

Like our friend Duff, I hope this currently-proposed and contentious legislation passes. One of its side-effects will undoubtedly be to clear out the less-than-purely-motivated among us.

And how could that be bad?

[Duff1 0]

There have been calls for years here in the States for people to step up and do what's best for all involved. To close your eyes to the issues the Hobby has inflicted on itself is a recipe for self-destruction.

The problem is that money talks. The breeders have been shrill in their demands to have the freedom to sell whatever the hell they want without fear of consequence. The big manufacturers and PIJAC quietly agree that the basis of the proposed legislation is legitimate but the selection of species is largely uninformed and potentially too severe.

The problem arises when the manufacturers of reptile related products and PIJAC throw in the towel and don't openly call for compromise. Instead they fall in with the snake-mills and whip up the masses with efforts to halt the legislation.

If PIJAC and the businessmen who deal in reptile supplies had joined forces with the educators, dedicated owners and the like, we'd probably be clear of this mess. The problem is that nuances are lost here on a lot of people - it's either complete freedom or piss off and die.

A lot of time and effort has been spent on fighting this legislation and even more will be spent as the individual states follow the example of Connecticut. For a fraction of that time - a bargain -we could have hammered out the details for a workable permitting system, educated the legislators and cleaned up quite a bit of this mess we've found ourselves in.

[Duff1 0]

I've reformatted this string so that it reads from top to bottom. Enjoy.

-----Original Message-----
From: H*****n, Pete
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 1:29 PM
To: P******, Craig

Subject: Comanche

Hey there,
As I told you on the phone, I think I'm going to have to give Comanche back. He's been very aggressive and unmanagible. Can you give me a call this weekend to set something up?

Thanks, Pete



----- Original Message -----
From: P******, Craig
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 4:54 PM
To: H*****, Pete

Subject: Re: Comanche

Peter:

I'll be around Saturday. I would encourage you to keep working with him, however. I think that with a little patience and time you can get him past this behavior.

It is not uncommon for cribos to go through a little "adolescent phase" and get a bit sassy. My understanding is that he is striking at you when you try to remove him from his cage.........have you tried hooking him?

It is very important for you to not let him get accustomed to intimidating you.

Craig


----- Original Message -----
From: H*****n, Pete
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 8:16 AM
To: P******, Craig

Subject: Re: Comanche

Craig, I've made up my mind and I'm not really up to working with him. He's striking the glass frint of the cage when I go near him.

I have talked to other breeders and they are positive that his behavior is a result of me feeding him in his cage. Apparently this has made him agressive. I was able to move him to a feeding tub last week, but he bit me twice when I tried moving him back to his cage. He then struck at the glass many time until I finally left the room.

I'm wondering that if you can pick him up as I am not really sure I can get him out of his cage. If uyou can do that, I'd be willing to let you keep half of the money I paid for him.

P

----- Original Message -----
From: P******, Craig
Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 4:31 PM
To: H*****, Pete

Subject: Re: Comanche

Peter:

A couple of things:

(1) This business about him being aggressive because he was fed in his enclosure is hogwash.........who told you that? Did they seriously recommend that you feed him in a separate enclosure? Did you tell them what type of snake he was?

(2) I have no problem picking him up. However, please re-read the contract that you signed when you purchased him. It clearly states that I have the right of first refusal. In short if you can't care for him, I get the first shot at him. I pay you half of the original purchase price if the snake is older than 12 months. This was also verbally explained to you at the time of purchase.

So to be clear, his original purchase price was $400.00. He is older than a year. By your offer, I will pay you $100.00 to take him back. This represents the contractually agreed re-purchase price of $200.00 minus your offer for me to come pick him up.

Please give me a call at (***) ***-**** at your earliest convenience so that we can set up a mutually acceptable time for me to come by.


Craig

[JSI 0]

That was a very entertaining read Duff.

Drymarchon are pretty entertaining feeders and a feisty one that smells food would be fun to try and get out of a cage. Anything that moves is food!! (See D.Pogue’s photo on one of the previous pages with his hand in a couperi’s mouth)

Jeremy

[rancor_ 0]

Let me get my "save page" button ready, as such frank, intelligent and educated postings about reptiles on a forum cant be up for too long.... Or can it?

I think this whole issue is a cause that is more than lost now. Unfortunate really that whats being touted as the only leg to stand on is the fact that this reptile hobby is "big business". Pity though that the driving force behind the majority of actual dollars in this "industry" is derived from broken animals. Revenue generated from the sale of fake waterfalls and 15 dollar incandescent bulbs with a picture of a Pogona on the box PALE in comparison to what a snake with defective genes rakes in. It must, because there's only a handful of executives at the "big box" reptile companies... But every yokel with a pair of GMR's (genetically modified reptiles...(tm)) is driving a 7 series......

Add the fact that probably only a fraction of those pulling in the huge deformity dollars actually claim their income, giving the government something they actually care about, we are left standing in the bucket full of morph shit we are in today. A by and large useless group of people who are only visible to the public when one of us screws up.

Not to say positive work isn't being done, education isn't happening or that conservation efforts are wasted... It just looks that way... Overwhelmingly. I'm also not saying that I personally am part of the solution...But I'm definitely not part of the problem though. This is truly a time for community awareness, and speakers for the masses. Scary thing is, I believe the majority ARE being represented by those hoisted up on their own petard. But its a-okay. They know best... Or at least they know better than me, afterall, I keep garter snakes. Justification and attempted rationalization are just 2 of the "tion's" that are currently being attempted to keep the morph money dream alive. Personally, I think if there is any reason to grow a 20 foot albino python and continue to propagate them in North America, its this... You ready?? Forward thinking ahead.......Seriously read on if you dare....
For Their Skins.
Think about it..... People are basically farming these things anyways. Stuffed into a cage just large enough that the animal doesn't have to (hopefully) touch its own excrement after its expelled from its body. Fed as much as possible to get as big as possible as fast as possible. What better route to legitimization (theres another "tion") than to go the route of domestic farming. It would alleviate some of the pressures on wild populations hunted for their skins, and it would give Jenifer Lopez the shiniest funny coloured snakeskin boots around...
Ok. Perhaps not one of my best ideas, but it would give purpose to reptiles with deleterious genes everywhere....
I dont know if I will ever produce a single reptile. This of course leaves me destined to not be taken seriously in the reptile world... However, what I do know is this - I will never produce more than could be quickly dispatched by Steve. Its just not worth wondering what kind of hands they could pass through when the novelty wears off.
Sir Steve :


Post Scriptum : Mr. Duff you are indeed a most welcome addition to our lounge. Tell Gina your tab is on me for the evening!

[corn_&_python1 0]

wowww

[Pro_bug_catcher 0]

rancor_ a écrit:

Personally, I think if there is any reason to grow a 20 foot albino python and continue to propagate them in North America, its this... You ready?? Forward thinking ahead.......Seriously read on if you dare....
For Their Skins.
Think about it..... People are basically farming these things anyways. Stuffed into a cage just large enough that the animal doesn't have to (hopefully) touch its own excrement after its expelled from its body. Fed as much as possible to get as big as possible as fast as possible. What better route to legitimization (theres another "tion") than to go the route of domestic farming. It would alleviate some of the pressures on wild populations hunted for their skins, and it would give Jenifer Lopez the shiniest funny coloured snakeskin boots around...
Ok. Perhaps not one of my best ideas, but it would give purpose to reptiles with deleterious genes everywhere....

I really like the parallel here between fashion ("la mode") and overly-mutant reptiles. This isn't new (e.g. designer morphs), but actually using the snakes for fashion takes it to another level altogether!

On the legislation to come in the U.S.
1) I won't be jealous of them being aloud to keep plenty of exotic insects, while I can only keep natives.
2) Something is better than nothing. As many have said already, there is a middle ground, and all or nothing isn't the best.
3) But my time on Wikipedia has thought me to be wary of "bureaucratization" and "over-regulation", these things are never fun, and they hinder good efforts, while the bad ones can often continue.

P.S. Alligator gumbo, BBQed boa, pickled python... I'd try it!

[LD/50 0]

rancor_ a écrit:

Let me get my "save page" button ready, as such frank, intelligent and educated postings about reptiles on a forum cant be up for too long.... Or can it?

Rancor, I was thinking the same thing as I read all of the posts from today and yesterday. I have not seen this kind of honest, educated and intelligent discussion since the old J&W thread, and we all know where that amazing and massive piece of work went. Freedom of speech is OK for some people if THEY'RE the only ones who have the freedom to speak. Try to put forth a completely opposite set of ideas ("ethics" maybe?) and most places you're shut down. Many of us speak from direct personal experience on this one. I think it would be an embarrassment for any site to have outside forces dictate what their content should be, tho. Just me mind you.

I think its clear that the people who justify their presence in the reptile hobby with their unregistered "businesses" and sad broken animals are the polar opposites of most readers here on this thread. And I think its obvious that most legislators can't and don't take a raggedy group of mostly "non tax paying" whiners very seriously when law making time comes. Why should they? So what if some tool with 20 tattoos and the communication skills of a packing peanut wants to keep and sell this or that reptile? When you stack up the damage these selfish types have done, along with the various reported incidents involving exotic herps its a sad picture.

But maybe for some its not 100% their fault. Lots of these greedy grubbers only know reptiles from their first "pet store" experience or from "the internet" NOT from the cottage or the ravine at the end of the street. Its too bad, because for many people "designer snakes" are REAL, they're BETTER than unmodified "normal" reptiles.
So these poor turds revere the herp equivalent of

but don't understand or care about
.
It follows then that this

is too confusing, but this

is something to be taken seriously .

Instead of listening to this

they sit and stare lovingly at this


Now after falling for one of the worst investment scams of our times, these silly deluded people innocently log on to this little thread just to see what the fuss is all about. And they read the literate, thought provoking words of Mr. Pogue. And Mr. Davidson. And rancor. And JSI. And for an American perspective, Duff. All well written, all posted within "the rules" of open and honest debate.

And they're really, really pissed. Because they KNOW they have no rebuttal, other than "I feel like it, its my right!" or my favourite "I make money doing this!" I guess they try to come up with a good point, but it must be frustrating to be slow, and pointless, and hopelessly addicted to a delusion, a "mirage".
So here's how they end up:



Enjoy your opressive legislation and your financial meltdowns, guys. You deserve it.


steven

[Stav 0]

Continuation of this thread here please :

http://www.repticlic.com/discussion-generale-reptiles-general-reptiles-discussion-f6/the-bienvenu-la-revolution-thread-here-in-this-post-t6804.htm

Thanks

[JSI 0]

................I don't think so.


Jeremy

P.S. That last picture is hilarious Steven.

[D. Pogue 0]

LD/50 a écrit:

rancor_ a écrit:

Let me get my "save page" button ready, as such frank, intelligent and educated postings about reptiles on a forum can't be up for too long.... Or can it?

I think it would be an embarrassment for any site to have outside forces dictate what their content should be, tho. Just me mind you.

I'd like to thank everyone who contributed intelligent, discussion-provoking commentary, silly humour, and pretty pictures here on this Thread. It's clear from today's explicit directions from the fellow with the avatar of a cartoon child sitting on a toilet that the various serious issues presented here are no longer open to debate. Frankly, I'm suprised that the informed minority viewpoints expressed openly here were permitted to continue as long as they did.

In closing, I would like to emphasize that Everything In The Reptile Hobby Is OK Now. A small handful of people with views that can't be adequately countered by anyone in the Majority have been effectively silenced.........again. That's good, though, because now things can continue as they were........you know........."Everything In The Reptile Hobby Is OK Now". Perhaps that could be the title of a great new Thread here or elsewhere, who knows?

Finally, I would like to go on record here as saying the following.......my parting words to everyone, everywhere on every Reptile Forum:

Point #1: "Aweeeeeesome pics, bro!"
Point #2: "Thanks for sharing!"
Point #3: "Keep us posted, dude"
Point #4: "Visit my website for a full listing of the hottest new mophs currently available for sale!"


That's better. Things are back to normal now. What a relief. I was worried for a minute that the Hobby had some massive problems facing it in the near future. Thank goodness I was incorrect about that.

Everything In The Reptile Hobby Is OK Now.

Regards,
Don

ps -

Stav a écrit:

"this thread looks like a bunch msn texts of people in their own universe chatting 24-7"

.

Indeed.